AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Kasper]

3 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

You know I've been thinking... I do love the footboss model, a lot. Also when my Megaboss on Maw-Krusha dies (it always dies) sometimes I haven't Waaaghed because some of my units sometimes aren't in range to count it up and actually make it work. Perhaps a Footboss for a backup Waaagh just in case could be warranted? 

Not sure I understood you correctly, but you can always Waagh, even if your general is on his own. You will just “only” get +1 attack.

[Lanoss]

I think he means megabosses assist with racking up the unit count towards Waaaagh!

 

I would have liked a battalion that makes Big G better and worth his points. I just can’t seem to fit him anywhere:(

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

Not sure I understood you correctly, but you can always Waagh, even if your general is on his own. You will just “only” get +1 attack.

Well if your Megaboss on Maw-Krusha dies he can't use the ability.

Also I thought you had to roll 1d6 and add the amount of Ironjawz Units wholly within 24/18'' and the total has to come to 11 to get +1 attack, or 12+ for +2 attacks?

Also the General must be a Megaboss, so if my Maw-Krusha boss is the general then only he can waaagh so the footboss cannot. oops.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Ravinsild

[NauticalSoup]

"If the roll is up to 11, until the end of that phase add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by friendly IRONJAWZ units wholly within 18" of your general. If the roll is 12 or more, until the end of that phase add 2 to the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by friendly IRONJAWZ units wholly within 18" of your general."

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by NauticalSoup
Bolding important bits

[Ravinsild]

2 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

"If the roll is up to 11, until the end of that phase add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by friendly IRONJAWZ units wholly within 18" of your general. If the roll is 12 or more, until the end of that phase add 2 to the Attacks characteristic of melee weapons used by friendly IRONJAWZ units wholly within 18" of your general."

 

Yeah I read that "up to" as "If the roll is equal to or greater than 11 add 1 to the attacks characteristic..." but I guess up to means 1 to 11? 

[NauticalSoup]

Just now, Ravinsild said:

Yeah I read that "up to" as "If the roll is equal to or greater than 11 add 1 to the attacks characteristic..." but I guess up to means 1 to 11? 

Up to means "less than or equal to". If it meant 11 exactly it would say so (since 12+ is the other result).

Interpreting it your way creates weirdness since you roll 12 and you have hit "greater than or equal to" both 11 and 12 so you get 3 attacks. So you would need more exclusionary language to make it either/or. 

[Lanoss]

Wait. Can’t we select a new general if the general dies? Or is that only for Open Play?

[Superninja]

only open play can select new general

 

[Kasper]

10 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Well if your Megaboss on Maw-Krusha dies he can't use the ability.

Also I thought you had to roll 1d6 and add the amount of Ironjawz Units wholly within 24/18'' and the total has to come to 11 to get +1 attack, or 12+ for +2 attacks?

Also the General must be a Megaboss, so if my Maw-Krusha boss is the general then only he can waaagh so the footboss cannot. oops.

I meant that you can always Waagh even with just himself being within range. As others have explained, it is "up to 11", so if he's alone and you roll a 1, you still get +1 attack. You can't fail getting +1 attack, only if you get 12 in which case it is +2.

I always use the Waagh. I'd rather use it one turn too early than one turn too late. It it a really big damage increase on pigs or even a unit of 10 Ardboyz. 

[PlasticCraic]

I did a write up on the new Battalions, which may be of interest to you guys :

https://plasticcraic.blog/2020/02/19/ironjawz-white-dwarf-battalions-leaks-and-analysis/

 

[Rentar]

What Da Bossfist needed to be:

Instead of +1 Attack, +1 rend to all weapons. Getting -2 rend on most weapons and -3 on the Mawkrusha fists would have been an amazing benefit against Ossiarch, especially Petrifex.

+1 Attack is nice, but it's not worth 220 points, especially when you need to sink 300 into Megabosses on foot.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Rentar

[Malakree]

10 minutes ago, Rentar said:

+1 Attack is nice, but it's not worth 220 points, especially when you need to sink 300 into Megabosses on foot.

That's the key point for me. Remove the requirement on 2 Footboss and make it 2 Megaboss instead so that it can be Maw-Krushas and Footbosses. That would make it much more usable as a double MK option.

 

EDIT: On a bit of a tangent.

The Rekruiting Krew is actually a really solid way to field large Brute units while also negating their low bravery. I can see it being solid at lower points.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Malakree

[Kasper]

44 minutes ago, Malakree said:

That's the key point for me. Remove the requirement on 2 Footboss and make it 2 Megaboss instead so that it can be Maw-Krushas and Footbosses. That would make it much more usable as a double MK option.

 

EDIT: On a bit of a tangent.

The Rekruiting Krew is actually a really solid way to field large Brute units while also negating their low bravery. I can see it being solid at lower points.

I liked the idea of mass Ardboyz immune to battleshock in Big Waagh, but unfortunately it is specifcally for Ironsunz. 

But then the question arises - Isn't Ardfist just simply better than having battleshock immune Ardboyz anyways? I'd say yes. 

So the 2 batallions are pretty much only for players wanting to field an almost entire Brutes army.

 

I keep wanting to try and make Da Bossfist work, but it is just no good. Even for double MK lists you'll be hardpressed to get much more than 1 Warchanter. To noones surprise, adding +1 attack is just nowhere near as good as adding +1 damage.

 

For both double MK and mass Brute armies you're likely much better off running a standard Ironfist list. You wont fit it all into a 1 drop anyways.

 

[Rentar]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

I did a write up on the new Battalions, which may be of interest to you guys :

https://plasticcraic.blog/2020/02/19/ironjawz-white-dwarf-battalions-leaks-and-analysis/

 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Megaboss (150) 

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Units
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

Battalions
Da Bossfist (220)

Ironfist (160)

Total: 1740 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
 

You can make a 2k list with both Bossfist and Ironfist. Just saying. Your article seems to imply that it's impossible. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Rentar

[Kasper]

@Rentar I think that is about as good as it gets. Get 2 Warchanters and an additional CP and you'll be at 1990. 

Sunblessed on 1 footdude, Ethereal on the Maw and Metalripper on the other foot guy.

You'll start with 5 CPs and a 4+ to get a 6th. 4 drops.

 

I still think you'll be better off just going for a normal lronfist and simply get more bodies. With the above list you've tied almost 50% of your army into 3 heroes (2 of which are kinda ******) and the batallion. The Footbosses kinda scream for the Warchanter buff to be semi useful, but at the same time you really want it on Brutes since it almost doubles their damage output. The Maw Krusha has 2 attack profiles with almost 20 attacks combined, so Warchanter buff is again significant here.

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Kasper

[WaaaghMookie]

Mighty Destroyers question :

"You can use this command ability in your hero phase. If you do so... (yada yada regular move, yada yada charge move)...must fight if it is within 3" of any enemy units..."

Since the GHB 19 I've been playing it as a pile in and attack in the hero phase, looking again at the new book it doesnt explicitly say "pile in" just that it "must fight." 

Do we still get a pile in?  Is the pile in move a part of "fighting?"  Or do we now just attack with what is in weapon range?  Thanks!

[Kasper]

@WaaaghMookie The core rules says when you pick a unit to fight, it first piles in and then attacks.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Kasper

[Lanoss]

I’ll be giving this a red hot go I reckon

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Shyish
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad / Mount Trait: Fast ‘Un
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet 
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour 
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Killa Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- 2x Gore Choppas
10 x Orruk Brutes (280)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 2x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
Extra Command Point (50)

Da Boss Fist (220)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 116

 

Its a 3 drop. Starts with minimum 4 cp. And the Megaboss with the Sunblessed Armour can sit in cover near an objective for a 2+ save reducing rend by 1. Meanwhile those brute units are hitting with 48/41/24 attacks respectively 

[DerZauberer]

Woah, this list just has so much flavour. Its literally called "Da Boss Fist" and just has all those beatiful bosses (6!) and brutes, like, super elite stuff, nothing weaker then a brute. I hope so much this establishes itself somehow and works, i can't feel but pure joy looking at such a list.

I still think the Footboss isn't as much a tax as we think it is, but I agree the cost of this battalion alone is a bit hefty. 

I need to know how this list worked for you @Lanoss!

[Skabnoze]

The more I look at Bossfist the more it seems to me that the intention should be to lean into and embrace the use of the bosses.  That should be self-evident by the name, but it strikes me that a lot of our discussion about “what it should have been” are somewhat off base because we are looking at the footbosses as a tax rather than a center design of the battalion.

Now, it could very well be the case that the battalion could be designed in a different way to make footbosses a more attractive option, but removing them does not seem like the right way to view the battalion.  In addition, it could well be the case that the battalion as it stands is just not great - which would be a shame but is probably the case for over half the battalions in the game.  I still contend that the base cost of the battalion is overly high - but I think that leaning into the footbosses as relatively cheap units with high offensive potential might be somewhat decent.  If you can get artifacts on those heroes you could turn them into pretty decent blenders.

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

The more I look at Bossfist the more it seems to me that the intention should be to lean into and embrace the use of the bosses.  That should be self-evident by the name, but it strikes me that a lot of our discussion about “what it should have been” are somewhat off base because we are looking at the footbosses as a tax rather than a center design of the battalion.

Now, it could very well be the case that the battalion could be designed in a different way to make footbosses a more attractive option, but removing them does not seem like the right way to view the battalion.  In addition, it could well be the case that the battalion as it stands is just not great - which would be a shame but is probably the case for over half the battalions in the game.  I still contend that the base cost of the battalion is overly high - but I think that leaning into the footbosses as relatively cheap units with high offensive potential might be somewhat decent.  If you can get artifacts on those heroes you could turn them into pretty decent blenders.

On the footbosses it's best viewed as a free half-stack (no wound) on strength from victory. They still have all the traditional problems faced by Footbosses, slow as sin, massive bases, unreliable and no support abilities.

Say we lean into maximising the gain from it. The units we are talking about are all multi-damage units anyway. Brutes have the boss/special weapon while MK/footboss have no single damage unit, so lets just drop the WC altogether and go full ham.

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- Artefact: Metalrippa's Klaw
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Megaboss (150)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Battalions
Boss Fist (220)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 100 / 400
Wounds: 118

This is a 1 drop list which maximises the +1 attack, the MSU Brutes is a classic for the +1 attack and the smaller units means that you are getting an extra attack on both the boss and the choppa. More over the fact you're running 10 units in a 1drop means that you need to roll a 2+ for the 2 extra attacks giving you 11 attacks base from both the Krusha weapons, 9 attacks from each of the footbosses while the brutes are doing 13 attacks on 4+/3+/-1/2 and 21 attacks at 3+/3+/-1/1.

That's a ton of attacks and half of your army is gaining wounds/attacks whenever it kills something in a combat phase which combined with the Ironsunz CA is actually something which should happen a fair bit, not to mention that you have a massive amount of CA coverage and the -1 to hit to soak that first round.

It's more than a bit mad but could be a laugh. Plus it's a 1 drop which are basically unheard of atm.

[Superninja]

just a heads up, the Da Bossfist requires 2-3 Footbosses and 2-3 units of brutes.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Superninja

[Rentar]

33 minutes ago, Malakree said:

On the footbosses it's best viewed as a free half-stack (no wound) on strength from victory. They still have all the traditional problems faced by Footbosses, slow as sin, massive bases, unreliable and no support abilities.

Say we lean into maximising the gain from it. The units we are talking about are all multi-damage units anyway. Brutes have the boss/special weapon while MK/footboss have no single damage unit, so lets just drop the WC altogether and go full ham.

This is a 1 drop list which maximises the +1 attack, the MSU Brutes is a classic for the +1 attack and the smaller units means that you are getting an extra attack on both the boss and the choppa. More over the fact you're running 10 units in a 1drop means that you need to roll a 2+ for the 2 extra attacks giving you 11 attacks base from both the Krusha weapons, 9 attacks from each of the footbosses while the brutes are doing 13 attacks on 4+/3+/-1/2 and 21 attacks at 3+/3+/-1/1.

That's a ton of attacks and half of your army is gaining wounds/attacks whenever it kills something in a combat phase which combined with the Ironsunz CA is actually something which should happen a fair bit, not to mention that you have a massive amount of CA coverage and the -1 to hit to soak that first round.

It's more than a bit mad but could be a laugh. Plus it's a 1 drop which are basically unheard of atm.

Only 2-3 Megabosses on foot, 2-3 Brutes, I'm afraid. So no triple Megaboss and no 5 Brute squads.

[Ganigumo]

I I threw this list together with the bossfist. It seems to generate a fair number of CP so I'm running a fungoid and aether quartz brooch.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Megaboss (150)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
15 x Orruk Brutes (420)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Battalions
Bossfist (220)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 90 / 400
Wounds: 120
 

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Ganigumo
Not supposed to have extra CP

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Rentar said:

Only 2-3 Megabosses on foot, 2-3 Brutes, I'm afraid. So no triple Megaboss and no 5 Brute squads.

ugh I confused it with the other one for 1-5 brutes.

I guess that just leaves you with 2 cabbages, 2 footbosses, 10+5+5 brutes 

Honestly it's just bad for it's cost.