AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[NauticalSoup]

15 hours ago, Tezia99 said:

I just pray daily to my little brutes that they become more viable. I’ve got 25 and would love to finally be able to use them competitively. 

Brutes have been playable competitively since they went down in price and Ardboys went up. With the changes to unit sizes and coherency I think it'll be difficult for GW to ****** them up badly enough that they don't fit into an army, and despite the big bases access to reach weapons will make them better off than Ardboys when reinforced.

Also worth nothing their true main competition, Goregruntas, are hobbled at 6 models by the coherency rules so internally that's also a win for Brutes since they'll be the most efficient hammer blob in IJ.

[Malakree]

42 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

Also worth nothing their true main competition, Goregruntas, are hobbled at 6 models by the coherency rules so internally that's also a win for Brutes since they'll be the most efficient hammer blob in IJ.

It is worth noting however that units of 3 GGs will count as 6 models for objective purposes which is a pretty huge boost for them.

As it stands at the moment ardboys look to be the big losers, especially with heroic recovery pushing bravery increases up in value.

[ShaneHobbes]

Are we taking bets on Frenzy of Violence being turned into a CA in the future?

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, ShaneHobbes said:

Are we taking bets on Frenzy of Violence being turned into a CA in the future?

Please god no...

I could see them turning the warbeats into CAs though rather than a 4+ trigger.

[ShaneHobbes]

1 minute ago, Malakree said:

Please god no...

I could see them turning the warbeats into CAs though rather than a 4+ trigger.

I'm hoping Warchanters get the priest keyword just to access all the nifty stuff they're adding but yeah if anything is going to be a CA I hope your version is the way they go..

 

Unfortunately I can see GW making FoV a one time use  with a cost along with a lot of other "free" abilities that are in the game. Looking at you Skink priests. 

[brattenbergus]

GHB 2021 Points Leaked 

 

[Tezia99]

Wow. Lots of point hikes there. Everything but  ardboyz and shaman going up up up. 

[VoodooChileIRL]

I know it is all up in the air (and with Kruleboyz an updated Orruk Warclans battletome is likely anyway) but what are the odds we see Warscroll updates with 3.0's release? The Megaboss CA, "Go on Ladz, get stuck in" is just All Out Attack with extra steps, though it does in theory give a non-general Megaboss on Maw Krusha an 18" All Out Attack. 

I'm also wondering who much the Warclans artifacts and the like might get affected. I know it's not powerful but a Weirdnob Shaman with "Bursting with Power" and the "Arcane Tome" can cast 3 spells a turn, 4 if they are using Cogs. I feel like there must be some shenanigans there.

[NauticalSoup]

I mean without a Warclans book on the immediate horizon Kruleboys aren't gonna sell a lot of models. Their warscrolls are expensive and largely mediocre and their one allegiance ability isn't gonna cut it. It would be very strange for them not to update the other warscrolls in the book at the same time.

[Tangjuicebox]

Honestly the 5 man squad size for ardboys is pretty limiting and I think Godrakk is over-costed but everything else looks fine points-wise. Most factions saw similar or worse price hikes. Still lagging behind Daughters and LRL of course but still, I'm fine with it, we did alright. 

[Lanoss]

I think Gordrakk’s value went waaaaaay up!

580pts yes. More. But seeing as everything’s gone up not so bad

With all the Hero and Monster abilities available to him

His own CA affecting 3 units

He does things not available to other units anymore 

[Malakithe]

So Blood Warriors and Chaos Warriors go to 10 but Ardboys stay at 5? Thats a max of 15 now and with coherency thats going to be rough.

Long live msu Brutes!

[Malakree]

Ok seeing the points I have the following opinions (assuming the new warclans book doesn't come out with 3.0)

Ardboys once again become the shizz. They went DOWN by 5 points and are battleline at 5 models, super efficient.

Brutes are once again useless, are boys are just better with that price split. As is the footboss.

GGs are still solid with only a 10 point increase. Mks/Big G are about the same as before relatively.

Warchanter 10point increase is expected tbh.

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Gordrakk (580)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)

Total: 1965 / 2000
 

So so tempting...

EDIT:

Or This

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa

Battleline
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
5 x Orruk Brutes (150)

Battalions
Battle Regiment
Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000

3 Drops...not terrible 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Malakree

[brattenbergus]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Ardboys once again become the shizz. They went DOWN by 5 points and are battleline at 5 models, super efficient.

Brutes are once again useless, are boys are just better with that price split. As is the footboss. 

Are they really useless? That Ardboys is Battleline at 5 models are really nice yes, but they cap at 15 models per unit. And you can only bring 2 units with 15 models in each, then you have to spam 5 man units. Wasnt Ardboys strength in numbers? To me it would seen Brutes are still looking good at 5 models. 

In your list though with the Big Boys its perfect with the 5 man Ardboys unit as Battleline. But that list focuses on the MKs to do the dmg, not so much the Ardboys. 

[SunStorm]

So if the restriction on Ardboyz needing to be 10s to count as battleline has been removed, then I can now fit Kragnos and 2x Mawkrushas in a 2000pt list. 

 

 

 

 

[Malakree]

12 minutes ago, brattenbergus said:

Are they really useless? That Ardboys is Battleline at 5 models are really nice yes, but they cap at 15 models per unit. And you can only bring 2 units with 15 models in each, then you have to spam 5 man units. Wasnt Ardboys strength in numbers? To me it would seen Brutes are still looking good at 5 models. 

Ardboys and Brutes are pretty close in terms of usefulness. You can now get 15 Ardboys for 285, compared to 10 Brutes for 300 points. I did a whole comparison before but basically 15 Ardboys are slightly better than 10 Brutes if you have a warchanter buff on them. Brutes only started getting better than Ardboys when Ardboys went up to 100 (from 90) and Brutes came down to 130 (from 140).

With a huge points difference now means that for infantry Ardboys are way more cost efficient than Brutes.

Then on the other end of it you had the hammer units, Brutes vs Goregruntas. GG's are just so much more versatile than Brutes especially now that they count as 2 models for objectives. If I were looking for a more "sane" list it would be more like this.

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
15 x Orruk Ardboys (285)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (285)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)

Endless Spells
Soulsnare Shackles

Battalions
Warlord Battalion
Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Wounds: 138

This gives you basically everything you want, the stupid new shackles and is only 5 drops.

[NauticalSoup]

I'm pretty surprised they would widen the points gap between brutes and ardboys even worse than when the book first came out, when they previously changed the points on both to bring them closer to parity. If the points had been closer brutes could have done something Ardboys can't with new coherency, at that points spread... yikes.

[Scurvydog]

Spamming ardboyz seems like a suboptimal choice now. the coherency rules hit them hard with their 33mm bases and 1" reach. Brutes seem to be a better bet in units of 10 with the 2" reach weapons. Also with monsters being such a big deal and having so many objectives related to them in matched play, the +1 to hit for the brutes will for sure come into play a lot more, also commands on a 10 man brute unit will be more efficient than on 15 ardboyz, where the brutes will be able to attack with far more power than the 15 ardboyz can. 

3 man grunta units do not kill anything really, they are neither an anvil or a hammer at that value. I'll still probably run a unit of 3 for objectives due to the speed, and still have 6 to have a proper hammer unit support the MK, with spears it should be easy enough to get them in, perhaps missing out on a pig or two, but still much more likely to wipe out what they need and trigger smashing and bashing.

[NauticalSoup]

Ardboys have a job no matter what as the cheapest battleline choice. In small units they'll continue to outperform brutes.

Coherency definitely hurts Gruntas, but so too does it hurt Brutes, even with hackas. Slow as they are they'll have a hell of a time moving around the table and getting into position to inflict pain. Even with 2" I don't relish fighting brutes into position, 40s are just awful especially in big numbers. 

The damage output of brutes and gruntas is super duper close if I remember correctly, almost identical (maybe even the same median?) when they can all fight and are warchanted up. Brutes are more vulnerable to battleshock and much slower, but have smaller bases (although more of them). Overall even if one grunta is stuck at the back drifting, and even with a marginal increase in points, I think gruntas are still the clear winner here either at 3 or at 6. 

[tripchimeras]

I honestly think warclans is in a great place as things stand.  Minimal 10pt increases mostly, which in comparison to other armies is really not that bad.  Even the increases on mawkrushas are pretty good for us given how much better they are now.  I think the 5 man battleline for ardboyz is great.  While being limited to 15 may seem bad, coherency combined with 1inch reach was going to naturally limit how big you wanted those units (and with the loss of batalions the big blocks feel not as great now anyways).  I think with the 25 pt swing between ardboyz and brutes you really do have to consider coherency, brutes have access to 2 inch reach, so 10-15 brutes are much easier to manage around the board despite the bigger base sizes.  I think while 15 ardboyz statistically are better then 10 brutes I think in practice and taking into account things coherency and reinforcement limits, brutes have a place.  I just think overall our flexibility and options feel like if anything they have increased, and I think with all of our charge bonuses and movement shenanigans we are really well positioned to counter the influx of stand and shoot based play.  Don't know if I'd call us one of the big winners so far, but definitely doesn't feel like we are losers.  Feels like we possibly got a modest upgrade for the edition taking everything into consideration. But time will tell, and if we are getting a new book next month, obviously big question is will it only be changing up the kruelboys or will everything be getting changed.

[Malakree]

9 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

I think with the 25 pt swing between ardboyz and brutes you really do have to consider coherency, brutes have access to 2 inch reach, so 10-15 brutes are much easier to manage around the board despite the bigger base sizes.  I think while 15 ardboyz statistically are better then 10 brutes I think in practice and taking into account things coherency and reinforcement limits, brutes have a place.

If you do the math Brute units with 2" reach weapons are just bad. They are Ardboys with 1 extra attack. I'll do the run down again.

• 15 Ardboys are 285 points to 10 Brutes at 300,
• Ardboys require 2 reinforcements while Brutes only need 1.

You're essentially paying 15 points for 1 reinforcement slot.

• Brutes have 3 wounds each, 10 of them is 30.
• Ardboys have 2 wounds each so 15 is 30.
• Both have a 4+ save.
• Ardboys get 2 Shields per 5. That's 6 shields at 15 which equates to ~2 extra wounds.

Ardboys have about 62 effective wounds. Brutes have 60 effective wounds.

• Ardboys have bravery 8 due to the banner.
• Brutes have bravery 6.
• Ardboys have a 3" -1 bravery aura around their glyphs.
• Ardboys get +2 to charge.

At 6 wounds Ardboys are on bravery 6 and Brutes are on bravery 5. It takes 8 wounds to go through before Brutes and Ardboys have the same bravery rolls.

• Ardboys get 32 attacks at 1"/3+/3+/-1/1
• Dual Choppa Brutes get 28 attacks at 1"/3+/3+/-1/1
• 2h Brutes get 21 attacks at 2"/3+/3+/-1/1
• All Brutes get 10 attacks at 2"/4+/3+/-1/2 
• I ignored the boss choppa/Klaw question because it's so tiny it doesn't matter.
• Brutes get +1 hit against 4+ wounds

On average you should get a boss, 2 gore choppa and 4/5 dual choppa brutes in because of their base size. This compares to a boss, 2 gorechoppa and 7 2h brutes.

For the Brutes that puts ~20 attacks from normal brutes as your reasonable number. Giving this graph

Spoiler

So you're looking at

• ~16 wo/wo
• ~28 wo/w
• ~21 w/wo
• ~36 w/w

 

Comparatively for Ardboys the smaller base size means you should be getting ~12 including the boss into melee range. (Personally I'd be expecting to get 14/15 into range but that requires some real obnoxious unit formation) That's 26 attacks.

Spoiler

• ~12 wo
• ~24 w

So against opponents with no save (the better situation for brutes) you're looking around 4 extra damage without the +1 to hit and around 10 if you do have it.

Brutes vs Ardboys Conclusion

Brutes have a slightly higher damage output normally which increases to a sizable amount if the target has 4+ wounds. Brutes are also slower, more expensive, have less effective wounds, less objective presence and are more vulnerable to battleshock.

Brutes are better in damage but are significantly worse in every other way.

GG's

• 40 points more expensive
• Over double the speed
• Count for 2 models on objectives
• Significantly more resilient against battleshock, they have to take 10 wounds to even have to take one.
• Expected 4 in combat. (I did a post on the stupid as formation on the board that gives you 6 pretty reliably but again it's obnoxious).
• Impact hits ~2 mortals on the charge
• 17 attacks at 1"/3+/3+/-1/1 and 16 attacks at 1"/4+/4+/-/1
• +1 to hit/wound on the secondary attacks if they charged.

Spoiler

• ~12 wo/wo
• ~24 wo/w
• ~15 w/wo
• ~30 w/w

So gg's are really close in damage to Brutes especially considering that this is only 4 of them.

Overall

As it was a while ago, if you want infantry to stand and hold you take Ardboys. If you want a hammer you take gg's. The only reason to take brutes anymore is if you need the reinforcement slot, which is admittedly something which might come up if you want to go 6/6 ggs and 10/10 brutes.

[Ganigumo]

Fair enough but I think you're underestimating how often you'll actually be able to get most of a unit of 'ardboyz into combat. I know you "can" get a unit of 10 in and attacking, but if the enemy unit isn't in a similar formation there's gonna be holes where you can't attack, getting 12-14 into combat is a bit of a pipe dream imo.

I still think ardboyz are good, but these very specific formations to maximize units fighting are also vulnerable to irregularities.

[NauticalSoup]

As Malakree has outlined in detail, the problem is that any situation where Ardboys aren't optimal GGs are going to be more useful than Brutes. Between them Ardboys and GG cover the spectrum of needs, Brutes just don't have a useful niche. Exactly like when the book first launched really.

[ShaneHobbes]

Have we talked about a Megaboss on Maw Krusha with Arcane Tome, casting Flaming Weapon on himself, and receiving the Warchanter +1 damage buff?

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Fair enough but I think you're underestimating how often you'll actually be able to get most of a unit of 'ardboyz into combat. I know you "can" get a unit of 10 in and attacking, but if the enemy unit isn't in a similar formation there's gonna be holes where you can't attack, getting 12-14 into combat is a bit of a pipe dream imo.

On ardboy bases it's not difficult just really fiddly. It's brute base size where it becomes realistically impossible.

If the enemy forms any sort of line I can get 90%+ of ardboys in melee range. It's really not as hard or complicated as people think.