AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Andrew G]

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

Goregruntas weren't touched at all offence wise. The Ironjawz Waaagh! is enormous for them as having 2 rend on the choppas and 1 on the boars is dirty as hell.

Add onto that the bloodtoofs ability and if I had 18 painted I would be taking them to the next event. I think part of the problem is that once you go bloodtoofs they are so much better that you really only want to be taking 2 units of 5 ardboys for home protection and even then 3gg's fill that role fine.

Agreed. Current list I'm playing actually runs 6x2 and 3x3 for 21 total. The insane ****** you can pull off with GGs in bloodtoofs is making some of my normal opponents rip their hair out. One of the main weaknesses of this type of style in the past was Gorefist/ Waaagh stacking incentivized more of an "all-in" playstyle compared to now.

If you're good at mental math, you can commit just enough T1 to clear all screens and then lockdown all their key pieces, completely protect against the initiative roll outcome, and come in for a killing blow T2 with some of the best hammers in the game. 

edit* Probably worth mentioning that being able to threaten a T1 complete alpha-strike makes your opponent deploy sub-optimally in the worst case, and in the best case you'll win a few games outright from seemingly small deployment mistakes from your opponent. 

We're about as strong as we've ever been. Good time to be a gore grunta loving IJ player. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Andrew G

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, ShaneHobbes said:

2" reach makes coherency less of an issue

Hmm I guess 2” is massive and easily allows them to fight in 2 Ranks. Might give them a go tbh! 

Quite liking the list below. Got two “pairs” with a MK + 3 Pigs being buffed and sent forward. Second pair waiting for next wave. Brutes are cleanup crew. 

Been playing with 6 heroes previously but those last 2 guys are essentially alot of wasted wounds considering our units are so cheap now. 

I do miss having access to Mystic Shield. 🤨

List Name: Ironjawz
Allegiance: Orruk Warclans
- Subfaction: Ironsunz
- Army Type: Ironjawz
- Grand Strategy: 
- Triumphs: 

Leaders
----------
Megaboss on Maw-krusha (480 pts)+
Orruk Warchanter (115 pts)+
Orruk Warchanter (115 pts)+
Megaboss on Maw-krusha (General) (480 pts)

Battleline
----------
Orruk Ardboys (85 pts)+
Orruk Brutes (320 pts)++
- Reinforced: Once
Orruk Ardboys (85 pts)

Units
----------
Orruk Gore-gruntas (150 pts)++
Orruk Gore-gruntas (150 pts)++

Artillery
----------

Behemoth
----------

Endless Spells & Invocations
----------

Core Battalions
----------
Warlord+
- Bonus Enhancement: Artefact of Power
Hunters of the Heartlands++

Total Points: 1980 pts

[Newtype_Zero]

So I'm trying to workout which Bloodtoofs list would be better to run for a few upcoming games - any input here?

List 1

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Mortal Realm: Aqshy
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Mega Bossy
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)**
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)**
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1940 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123
Drops: 2

List 1 Points:

Fast 'un mount trait for my Krusha with the hacka and choppa will basically let me ensure that I can get him where I need to him to be turn 1 with the extra move action. Additionally, with the range MBoMKs have for Mighty Destroyers since they have the Totem keyword, I could, in theory, use Fast 'un to move him closer an opponent's squad (ideally within charge range) then MD and still be in range of 2 GG squads to move them up as well while being able to charge the boss.

The extra Warchanter gets me an additional VF to either put on my frontline MBoMK or a 2nd GG squad.

And, much as I hate a 60 point float, it pretty much locks me in to get Bloodthirsty every game.

List 2

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Mortal Realm: Aqshy
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Mega Bossy
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)**
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)**
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)*
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)**
- Pig-iron Choppas
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)*
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 133
Drops: 2

List 2 Points

Weirdnob - hi Mystic Shield!

Ardboys for some backline defense.

[ccconner777]

5 hours ago, Kasper said:

Hmm I guess 2” is massive and easily allows them to fight in 2 Ranks. Might give them a go tbh! 
 

Yep the 2" reach makes coherency only a minor annoyance. Even in the last book 10 brutes with 2 inch weapons were a scary block of death, but they were just overshadowed by ardboys efficiency i think. Now that they have more rend and invalidate 1 wound models on objectives im very excited to get them back on the table. Plus the ability to mighty destroyers multiple units is huge for brutes

[Kasper]

2 hours ago, ccconner777 said:

Yep the 2" reach makes coherency only a minor annoyance. Even in the last book 10 brutes with 2 inch weapons were a scary block of death, but they were just overshadowed by ardboys efficiency i think. Now that they have more rend and invalidate 1 wound models on objectives im very excited to get them back on the table. Plus the ability to mighty destroyers multiple units is huge for brutes

Yeah I'll probably MD Brutes + GG + MK first turn and then have the Brutes run in the movement. Should send them flying to where they need to be for a countercharge in Ironsunz or ready for turn 2 really.

[Skumbaagh]

Just want to say how glad I am to be back in the IJ forums and see the old faces again! Malakree, andrew G, broche, plastic Craic and others! You guys have made my Orctober! These discussions are extremely helpful, thank you for putting in the time into this.

I'll be lurking around! 

[Backbreaker]

15 hours ago, broche said:

Not sure why you consider Gruntas

 

15 hours ago, Malakree said:

Goregruntas weren't touched at all offence wise

Wait, you still get +1 to hit and to wound on the charge? I really must be blind haha!

 

I told you, I'm lost with this new battletome ^^

[Kasper]

55 minutes ago, Backbreaker said:

 

Wait, you still get +1 to hit and to wound on the charge? I really must be blind haha!

 

I told you, I'm lost with this new battletome ^^

The spears lost the +1/+1 on the charge, but the pigs are now baseline 3/3 instead of 4/4. So spears do less damage with melee attacks but the impact hits were improved from a 4+ to a 2+ with spears. 

[Backbreaker]

4 minutes ago, Kasper said:

The spears lost the +1/+1 on the charge, but the pigs are now baseline 3/3 instead of 4/4. So spears do less damage with melee attacks but the impact hits were improved from a 4+ to a 2+ with spears.

Oh... well then, they lost A LOT. And they are definitely not a shock cavalry anymore for me.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Backbreaker said:

 

Wait, you still get +1 to hit and to wound on the charge? I really must be blind haha!

 

I told you, I'm lost with this new battletome ^^

Just checked. The pigs don't get +1/+1 on charge but they are 3+/3+ now instead of 4+/4+. So the charge bonus was just added as standard.

Also I never used the spears so forgot about that.

On the other side flat mortals on the charge has way better synergies with the bloodtoofs buff while the spears were competing against the +1 attack on axes anyway. 

Overall I'd say they actually got better not worse.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Malakree

[Scurvydog]

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

Just checked. The pigs don't get +1/+1 on charge but they are 3+/3+ now instead of 4+/4+. So the charge bonus was just added as standard.

Also I never used the spears so forgot about that.

On the other side flat mortals on the charge has way better synergies with the bloodtoofs buff while the spears were competing against the +1 attack on axes anyway. 

Overall I'd say they actually got better not worse.

Just 3 gruntas with violent fury during Waagh does around 21 damage against a 4+ save. Warbosses being able to might destroyer multiple units make Gruntas some of the fastest units in the game. Unless going for Mega Gargants a MK does not even need violent fury to dish out a lot of damage, 

With 2 warchanters, running the 2 MK, 2x3 guntas and 10 brutes list, I would probably buff up 1 MK and 1 grunta unit, alpha in the 2 MKs and the buffed gruntas in a way to maximize smashing and bashing potential. Those guys will probably be out of range for violent fury next hero phase, which is where the "backup" grunta unit and brutes can come in with wave 2 buffed up and ready to go.

[broche]

On 9/25/2021 at 10:43 AM, Boar said:

IMO you can use: Rally, Inspiring Presence, Unleash Hell (and book ones: Mighty Destroyers and Ironsunz one). Rest simply don't work with multiple targets at once as game sequencing (moving, charging, fighting one at time) result in situation where you can ever issue such CA to one unit.

Just worth mentioning, i noticed rally need to be issue by the Ardboyz champion to work on 4+ (MK can still use it on 3 but you'll stay at 6+)

[Skumbaagh]

5 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Just 3 gruntas with violent fury during Waagh does around 21 damage against a 4+ save. Warbosses being able to might destroyer multiple units make Gruntas some of the fastest units in the game. Unless going for Mega Gargants a MK does not even need violent fury to dish out a lot of damage, 

With 2 warchanters, running the 2 MK, 2x3 guntas and 10 brutes list, I would probably buff up 1 MK and 1 grunta unit, alpha in the 2 MKs and the buffed gruntas in a way to maximize smashing and bashing potential. Those guys will probably be out of range for violent fury next hero phase, which is where the "backup" grunta unit and brutes can come in with wave 2 buffed up and ready to go.

That list wouldnt be legal unless in blood toofs since gore gruntas are not battleline elsewhere. I struggle to write lists now with gruntas and a lot of brutes.

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, Skumbaagh said:

That list wouldnt be legal unless in blood toofs since gore gruntas are not battleline elsewhere. I struggle to write lists now with gruntas and a lot of brutes.

I struggle to write lists with lots of Brutes period tbh. Their objective play is obviously amazing on paper but its semi worthless atm in this edition. It might be a local meta thing but tables arent swarmed with 1 wound models where I play. People are still hyped about monsters or in general bigger heroes etc. Many armies bring 3x 10 to fulfill battleline and thats it. You dont need Brutes to challenge that. 

The output of Brutes is great and better than Pigs, but the damage difference isnt large enough imo that it makes up for the inferior movement. Battle tactics really reinforce that speed is key and its important to get into certain places to complete the tactics instead of just swamping objectives.

I think lists need to have multiple big threats, so I could see 10 Brutes make up one threat if you arent bringing 2x MK, but I really dont value Brutes beyond that compared to filling out with Pigs/+3x 5 Ardboy for battleline. 

[idn0971]

8 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I struggle to write lists with lots of Brutes period tbh. Their objective play is obviously amazing on paper but its semi worthless atm in this edition. It might be a local meta thing but tables arent swarmed with 1 wound models where I play. People are still hyped about monsters or in general bigger heroes etc. Many armies bring 3x 10 to fulfill battleline and thats it. You dont need Brutes to challenge that. 

The output of Brutes is great and better than Pigs, but the damage difference isnt large enough imo that it makes up for the inferior movement. Battle tactics really reinforce that speed is key and its important to get into certain places to complete the tactics instead of just swamping objectives.

I think lists need to have multiple big threats, so I could see 10 Brutes make up one threat if you arent bringing 2x MK, but I really dont value Brutes beyond that compared to filling out with Pigs/+3x 5 Ardboy for battleline. 

The value of brutes for me is the rend -2 with the new book. Ironjawz always struggled with high armor saves and with the new edition and save stacking high rend is super important. Having a high damage unit that doesn't evaporate and get deal loads of -2 2 damage attacks is really helpful in the new edition. Brutes are for sure slower but the megaboss being able to issue 3 mighty destroyers at once means that you can move both a unit of brutes, a unit of gore gruntas, and a megaboss in the hero phase for one command point which is amazing.

[Malakree]

50 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I struggle to write lists with lots of Brutes period tbh. Their objective play is obviously amazing on paper but its semi worthless atm in this edition. It might be a local meta thing but tables arent swarmed with 1 wound models where I play. People are still hyped about monsters or in general bigger heroes etc. Many armies bring 3x 10 to fulfill battleline and thats it. You dont need Brutes to challenge that. 

The output of Brutes is great and better than Pigs, but the damage difference isnt large enough imo that it makes up for the inferior movement. Battle tactics really reinforce that speed is key and its important to get into certain places to complete the tactics instead of just swamping objectives.

I think lists need to have multiple big threats, so I could see 10 Brutes make up one threat if you arent bringing 2x MK, but I really dont value Brutes beyond that compared to filling out with Pigs/+3x 5 Ardboy for battleline. 

The thing about brute heavy lists is with da choppas you can buff multiple units of them at once. 3x10 brutes all with +1 damage from only one WC is terrifying in a way GGs never will be. The -2 rend and free +1 to hit vs big stuff guarantees they mince things with 4+ wounds while they flat out deny single wound models from holding objectives. If you don't think that's important with horrors being a thing you are overlooking one of the strongest lists in the game atm.

Sure they don't run with 2 cabbages but there is a reasonable 1 cabbage list and potential for a footslogging list.

Brutes are solid as hell right now.

[ShaneHobbes]

I will say I've been also having a lot of fun running foot bosses with block of brutes. I bring two of them and its nice not having to worry about activating them before they get bodied. This might be the first time I've actually enjoyed having foot megabosses on my list. Them also always having an 18" range to issue CAs with the Shouts is solid.

Edited September 28, 2021 by ShaneHobbes

[Vastianos]

On 9/26/2021 at 4:25 PM, PlasticCraic said:

Hey mate glad you enjoyed it!  Corey is a very analytical player as you would have got from the article, so it was a good opportunity to go down the well on the nuts and bolts of playing the army effectively - deployment, detailed turn 1 strategies and so on.

I'll be playing KB as something similar (combined arms / counterpunch) but my own current build is Double Croc.  Similar idea really, they flex between buffing your shooting then flipping to that big melee Waaagh turn. 

I'll be honest, IJ is the part of the book I've looked at least so far!  Bonesplitterz are "my dudes" and KB were the new shiny, so that's where I've focused my own energy up till now.  I'll figure something out by Friday but atm I'm thinking maybe I'll do 1 list from each Clan.  So not as in-depth as Corey's Kruleboyz piece (sorry!) but I'll def be covering Ironjawz this week!

Think you will also do one for Big Waagh? I read all of your articles and play all the green boyz so very interested on your thoughts on what the Big Waagh might look like competitively.

[Scurvydog]

11 hours ago, Skumbaagh said:

That list wouldnt be legal unless in blood toofs since gore gruntas are not battleline elsewhere. I struggle to write lists now with gruntas and a lot of brutes.

I just didnt mention the 2x5 ardboys thats all, I posted the list a bit earlier, but it is 2 MKs, 2 Chanters, 10 brutes, 2x5 ardboyz and 2x3 gruntas, so it is legal  

 

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

Brutes are solid as hell right now.

I would agree there is a play for lots of brutes, perhaps even a lot of MSU units in da choppas with perhaps 2-3 warchanters. Brutes are not that hard to kill, but wave after wave is a problem for anyone, and even 5 with violent fury do some really nasty work, although 10 can still take a few hits and dish back the pain and/or more likely to trigger a smashing and bashing. Might even go with footboss and a MK. The MK will be a prime target, so might even consider the footboss the general and go for mega bossy, then from these 2 alone it would be possible to double move up to 5 units to give the slower brutes some momentum up the board.

[Kasper]

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

The thing about brute heavy lists is with da choppas you can buff multiple units of them at once. 3x10 brutes all with +1 damage from only one WC is terrifying in a way GGs never will be. The -2 rend and free +1 to hit vs big stuff guarantees they mince things with 4+ wounds while they flat out deny single wound models from holding objectives. If you don't think that's important with horrors being a thing you are overlooking one of the strongest lists in the game atm.

Sure they don't run with 2 cabbages but there is a reasonable 1 cabbage list and potential for a footslogging list.

Brutes are solid as hell right now.

As I wrote, it might be a case of local metas being different, but literally nobody are playing mass Pinks or whatever here in either clubs that I play in. At most some Tzeentch lists have 10 Pinks because they usually want to fill it with support for Archaon or mass casters or whatever, but a single unit is easy enough to deal with and dont "require" Brutes at all. If someone is playing 40 Pinks in Australia I dont really care since it isnt affecting me in EU, yet. 

Yes the damage of Brutes is superior to Pigs but the gulf between them dont seem big enough mathhammer wise to give up the increased mobility. People are drooling over the "rend 2 is king" thing but mathhammer wise it doesnt seem THAT much stronger? 

So there are obviously a lot of factors that can be at play here. This is just 5 Brutes (3 with Gore-Hackas, 1 Gore-choppa and 1 Boss Klaw) vs 3 Pigs. Both have warchanter buff. I didnt factor in the +1 to hit for the Brutes because the arguement is the objective play (i.e fighting 1 wound models) rather than overall damage potential - You can always give the Pigs +1 from AoA anyways and it will be about the same increase.

Lets assume you are fighting something with a 4+ base save that got +2 to save from Mystic Shield and AoD or whatever (ignoring rend 2 then), this would mean the Pigs are doing 9,33 damage to the unit because the targeted unit will be on a 3+ save meanwhile the Brutes will do 11,83 damage because they ignore the +2 save so they are hitting against the 4+ base save. Its a bit scuffed because the Boss Klaw is only rend 1, so should be hitting on a 3+ target too but I pooled everything into one profile, lets give the Brutes this edge and its probably minor anyways.

So Brutes are ahead here but we are missing the very likely 2 MWs from 3x 3+ impact hits from the Pigs, so a more realistic picture would be that they are doing 2+9,33 = 11,33 damage. 

So the mathhammer picture leans in favor of Brutes the better save the target has and obviously leans towards the Pigs as you fight targets with worse saves like Zombies or most other horde units in general. 

 

1. They are identical points (pretty much)
2. Brutes DO more damage, but mathhammer proves the damage is not as big as people make it out to be
3. Pigs have significantly superior mobility

 

Am I missing something here?

[QuinacridoneGold]

So, as always, this thread is really useful.

I am starting to explore AoS 3.0 with my group and really liking it so far. I am bringing my pure Ironjawz to 2k.

From my understanding, Optimal builds would be 2 Maw Krushas and MSU spamming of pigs.

However, I only have acces to 9 Gore Gruntas, and would refrain from buying more as modelling and painting them is too painful.

My roster is; 1Maw Krusha, 9 Gore Gruntas, 3 Warchantes, 30 Ardboys, 25 Brutes, 2 Weirdnob Shamans (plus a handful of naked orks and a growing kruleboyz force).

My 1500pt list was: 1MK, 2 warchanters, a unit of 6 pigs and 3 MSU units of brutes. Played against Tzeentch and it was a killer. Single drop. Get turn 2 and smash everything. Worked beautifully.

I am unsure about how to go up to 2k. At present, I believe the dual cababge plus pig spam list to possibly be the most competitive thing we have. Do you think just adding Brutes and a Footboss in a Choppas or Ironsunz list would be good? Should I also take the 3 remaining pigs? Am I doomed to buy another cabbage, and shed tears and blood on thousands of angry pigs?

 

 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

Am I missing something here?

How many units of pigs can you WC buff at once.

[Kasper]

3 minutes ago, Malakree said:

How many units of pigs can you WC buff at once.

So your point being that Brutes are only good in Choppas then? I feel like this discussion is dishonest and pointless tbh.

[Backbreaker]

39 minutes ago, Kasper said:

So your point being that Brutes are only good in Choppas then? I feel like this discussion is dishonest and pointless tbh.

Absolutely not, both are good. But when played in Choppas, I think Brutes are better. Even if you consider the Gruntas played in Bloodtooth.

They are not the same unit and they both have their uses.

Another point is that when Brutes are played with their 2" weapon, they loose an attack and gain 1 rend. But the Gruntas in your example are using their 1" weapon, which can be an issue with their base.

Overall, to each their own, I think both work and both will see the tabletop often  

[Orkmann]

In my eyes the main weakness of IJ in AoS2 was the lack rend. The only solution to deal with tanky armies used to be the cabbage with the metalrippa and hero phase fighting (against OBR). These options are gone now, so the extra rend of the brutes comes very handy. 

Based on point cost and mathhamer, the gruntas are the most effecient in the army, which makes them a great generalist unit, esp due to their speed. I consider the brutes more of a specialist unit to deal with tanky targets. So in terms of list building, I like to take a unit of 10 brutes, arboyz to fill out the remaining bline slots (in Ironsunz) and as many MSU pigz as possible.