Warmill Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 25 minutes ago, dnusha said: Analogy has nothing to do with the rules. Your point is "Megaboss issues a command, one guy recieves it and everything else doesn't matter, two other guys must recieve CA effect and there are no restrictions AT ALL that prevents them from recieving the effect", that is certainly not the case. You do understand that my hypothetical apple-giving situation is using literally the same rules as issuing and receiving CAs, right? I'm applying the megaboss rule in its entirety because there IS nothing in the rule about restrictions, just pick 3 units to receive it. You're reading it as "may pick 3 units to receive the command ability instead of 1 as long as all 3 units meet all the requirements at the same exact moment", and that's not what the rule says is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew G Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 40 minutes ago, dnusha said: Analogy has nothing to do with the rules. Your point is "Megaboss issues a command, one guy recieves it and everything else doesn't matter, two other guys must recieve CA effect and there are no restrictions AT ALL that prevents them from recieving the effect", that is certainly not the case. well, there would be a restriction that they would have to be wholly within 18" of the megaboss but basically you got the other side of the argument. Again, we've heard playtesters specifically mention that they issued all-attack through the Megaboss in their games at the studio (great examples of a CA where only one unit meets the initial trigger requirement). That said, I personally am tired of arguing with my local group on this (which is split down the middle on interpretation) and play it as every unit who receives a CA needs to meet the initial trigger requirement/ have "eligibility". I'll treat the FAQ as a nice windfall if it falls on the side I think it's going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dnusha Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Warmill said: You do understand that my hypothetical apple-giving situation is using literally the same rules as issuing and receiving CAs, right? I'm applying the megaboss rule in its entirety because there IS nothing in the rule about restrictions, just pick 3 units to receive it. You're reading it as "may pick 3 units to receive the command ability instead of 1 as long as all 3 units meet all the requirements at the same exact moment", and that's not what the rule says is it? We are not playing with analogues here. (and i do understand your example with kids and apples it;s just that it has nothing to do with actual rules) We have strict rules for abilities, their effects and restriction for these effects. We also have core rules. We have units that may recieve or may not recieve an effect from ability. According to these rules you can not pick more than one unit to fight, According to these rules you can not apply an effect of ability to units not eligible for it due to effects restrictions. Megaboss ability can modify core rules, restrictions from abilty can't be modified. In order to apply effect of CA to 2 other units they should fit into restrictions in description of from that ability. They can't. My take on this: feel free to play like you want, if GW will clarify this in FAQ - great, who doesn't want 3x AoA AoD. If not well, this is going to follow us on events untill new edition. Edited October 8, 2021 by dnusha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 I've already been to an event and nobody complained about me using AoA and AoD on 3 units. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broche Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 I think at this point further discussion on the subject is pointless. Current concensus seem to be that it work on 3 units. Could change with the FAQ. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, broche said: I think at this point further discussion on the subject is pointless. Current concensus seem to be that it work on 3 units. Could change with the FAQ. To give my opinion on each of them. All out attack, defence, inspiring presence, snb and rally all just work when triggered. Overwatch works on multiple units but they must target the charging unit. Imo they ALSO must be within 9". Redeploy works but can only target units that are within 9" of the enemy unit which triggered it. The 6" run applies to 3 units in range but doing so declares that all 3 will run. The charge reroll can target 2 additional units when it is first triggered but you have to choose it then. Having done so you don't need to reroll as it says you "can" reroll the charge. EDIT: This is nothing to do with literal definitions of the rules and more my expectations of how TOs will rule in tournaments. Edited October 8, 2021 by Malakree 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew G Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 28 minutes ago, Malakree said: To give my opinion on each of them. All out attack, defence, inspiring presence, snb and rally all just work when triggered. Overwatch works on multiple units but they must target the charging unit. Imo they ALSO must be within 9". Redeploy works but can only target units that are within 9" of the enemy unit which triggered it. The 6" run applies to 3 units in range but doing so declares that all 3 will run. The charge reroll can target 2 additional units when it is first triggered but you have to choose it then. Having done so you don't need to reroll as it says you "can" reroll the charge. I agree with the end result of everything you outlined, but I'm much more black or white on this discussion. A) Either all units who receive a CA need to meet the trigger condition at the time the CA is issued (be a target of an attack, an enemy ends a move within 9", etc.) -or- B) One unit needs to meet the trigger condition for the CA to be issued, and then the other two selected units just need to be in range of the MB. Picking and choosing when to apply either interpretation is just a little too arbitrary for my taste. If they wanted to get granular in the FAQ with each CA, and choose your interpretation for each CA, I'm all for it. Unfortunately, I think they'll just pick either A and B when they clarify how the ability is supposed to work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmill Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Andrew G said: I agree with the end result of everything you outlined, but I'm much more black or white on this discussion. A) Either all units who receive a CA need to meet the trigger condition at the time the CA is issued (be a target of an attack, an enemy ends a move within 9", etc.) -or- B) One unit needs to meet the trigger condition for the CA to be issued, and then the other two selected units just need to be in range of the MB. Picking and choosing when to apply either interpretation is just a little too arbitrary for my taste. If they wanted to get granular in the FAQ with each CA, and choose your interpretation for each CA, I'm all for it. Unfortunately, I think they'll just pick either A and B when they clarify how the ability is supposed to work. I agree with you, it's going to get ruled 100% one way or the other, no individual CA interpretation. If there was going to be a granular interpretation it would've been covered in the megaboss rule to start with. Edited October 8, 2021 by Warmill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddlesworth Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 It's all in the triggers. Rally - "the unit that receives the command must be more than 3 inches away from enemy units" Redeploy - "the unit that receives this command must be within 9 inches of that enemy unit" Inspiring Presence - "use this command ability at the start of the battleshock phase. The unit that receives this command..." Those conditions and timings must be met for the MB to issue the command to the unit, regardless of how many he issues to. All out Attack - "when you pick a unit to fight in the combat phase, add 1 to hit rolls for attacks until the end of the phase. That unit must receive the command." Skull shaking bellow: "when you pick this unit to issue a command, you can pick up.to 3 friendly IJ units to recieve the command instead of only 1" The unit making the attacks receives the command. All conditions are met. That two other units also receive the command is inconsequential. The wording makes it non restrictive. Thiugh I would not be surprised at.all to see it FAQd out either 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuinacridoneGold Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 (edited) Hello ladz. I will be playing a 1500 pt game against Slaves to Darkness very soon. No clue on his list. Battleplan is going to be "Mark the Territory" Here is the list I want to try. Spoiler Allegiance: Ironjawz - Warclan: Ironsunz - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line LEADERS Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)* - General - Command trait: Hulking Brute - Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny - Mount Trait: Mean 'Un Orruk Warchanter (115)* - Warbeat: Fixin' Beat Orruk Warchanter (115)* - Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat UNITS 5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)* 5 x Orruk Ardboys (85)* 10 x Orruk Brutes (320)* - Jagged Gore-hackas 6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (300)* - Jagged Gore-hackas CORE BATTALIONS *Battle Regiment TOTAL: 1500/2000 WOUNDS: 110 The list is 1-drop to ensure second turn. The krusha has amulet of destiny and rip-toof fist for defense, and Hulking Brute and mean 'un to maximize damage on the charge and stomp. I reinforced the units of brutes and gruntas to be both under the effect of the Command Ability multiplier of the Maw Krusha. Not sure how we will deal with the controversy for All Out Attack/Defense. I know brutes are slow, but with Mighty destroyer issued from the MK and an "At the Double" command ability (they would never really charge at turn 1) they would travel an impressive 14" in my first turn, and, while not fighting alongside with the Krusha and Gruntas in the first combat phase, the Ironsunz Countercharge could make them very scary at my opponent's second turn. The units of Ardboys are there to camp on home objectives The 2 Warchanters don't even require explanation. What do you guys think? I am not sure if i want to keep the gruntas and brutes reinforced, and advance in a single block or split at least the gruntas in two MSU leaving the block of brutes a little far behind. Also, I am considering switching the command trait to Mega Bossy, to issue multiple counter charges or Move with mighty destroyers across different portions of the field Thank y'all very much in advance! Edited October 11, 2021 by QuinacridoneGold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted October 11, 2021 Share Posted October 11, 2021 3 hours ago, QuinacridoneGold said: I will be playing a 1500 pt game against Slaves to Darkness It will probably be easy then and your list is going to work great. Hard to make a bad ironjawz list really. 3 Big hammer units makes some sense as your boss can mighty destroyer all of them. Slaves are only any good thanks to Archaon, everything else is rather weak and got no chance to stand up to a charging Mawkrusha or rend 2-3 brutes and so on. They lost all their reroll saves stuff and they have no ranged firepower, so will have to engage a far far stronger melee army. Aside from poor dice rolling there is not much reason the new ironjawz should lose to StD. If fighting for objectives and they use Marauders, you can always just send brutes after them with "you messin?" to completely nullify their numbers, although the number will be 0 rather quickly after melee with 10 brutes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggab Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 Hey guys I played new Ironjawz with Ironsunz yesterday. Me and my friend got confused with "At the end of enemy charge phase" rule. So I used Ironsunz ability on my friend's end of charge phase and made charge with Mawkrusha but we realized Monstrous rampage goes off on "end of charge phase". So my friend used his Monstrous rampage first and then I used Ironsunz ability to charge, but we couldn't figure out if MK still can use Monstrous rampage after it charged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirtripper Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 44 minutes ago, Noggab said: Hey guys I played new Ironjawz with Ironsunz yesterday. Me and my friend got confused with "At the end of enemy charge phase" rule. So I used Ironsunz ability on my friend's end of charge phase and made charge with Mawkrusha but we realized Monstrous rampage goes off on "end of charge phase". So my friend used his Monstrous rampage first and then I used Ironsunz ability to charge, but we couldn't figure out if MK still can use Monstrous rampage after it charged. The active player does all of his "End of [phase]" abilities in whichever order they choose, then the non-active player does the same. In this case, you can definitely use the Ironsunz CA to charge with the MK, then use its Monstrous Rampage. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggler Posted October 12, 2021 Share Posted October 12, 2021 Still no FAQ lol? Here is some interesting stuff that I found: Ironjawz took home First place at the Michigan GT. As far as I can tell he is using a list that has not been posted in this thread. Spoiler Double MBMK, Double Mount Trait, Tripple Warchanter! But wait? No Fast Un? I'll let you guys dissect this one. Obviously player skill was involved. Ironjawz also took 3rd and 4rth place out of 75 at the Mancunian Carnage. Here are a few couple lists. Its great to see the variations and again, nothing beats player skill and having a plan of attack for each of the battleplans and opponents. Spoiler Allegiance: Ironjawz - Warclan: Ironsunz - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line - Triumphs: Inspired Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)** - General - Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist - Command Trait: Heroic Stature - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact) - Mount Trait: Fast 'Un Orruk Warchanter (115)** - Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat Orruk Warchanter (115)** - Warbeat: Fixin' Beat Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90) - Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork Orruk Megaboss (140)*** - Artefact: Destroyer 10 x Orruk Brutes (320)* - Jagged Gore-hackas - 2x Gore Choppas - Reinforced x 1 15 x Orruk Ardboys (255)* - 3x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers - Reinforced x 2 5 x Orruk Brutes (160)* - Jagged Gore-hackas - 1x Gore Choppas 3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)** - Pig-iron Choppas 3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)*** - Pig-iron Choppas *Hunters of the Heartlands **Warlord ***Vanguard Artefact Total: 1975 / 2000 Reinforced Units: 3 / 4 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 128 Drops: 10 This list only lost to a Teclis Sentinel castle and that Lumineth only went on to finish 2/3 while Ritchie finished 4-1 Spoiler Russ Veal - Facehammer Allegiance: Ironjawz - Warclan: Ironsunz - Grand Strategy: Waaagh! - Triumphs: Inspired Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)** - General - Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist - Command Trait: Mighty Waaagh! Leader - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact) Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)* - Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist - Artefact: Destroyer - Mount Trait: Fast 'Un Orruk Warchanter (115)** - Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)* - Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork Orruk Megaboss (140)** - Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact) - Lore of the Weird: Bash 'Em Ladz Orruk Warchanter (115)* - Warbeat: Killa Beat 10 x Orruk Ardboys (170)* - Reinforced x 1 5 x Orruk Brutes (160)*** - Jagged Gore-hackas - 1x Gore Choppas 5 x Orruk Brutes (160)*** - Jagged Gore-hackas - 1x Gore Choppas 4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)** *Warlord **Warlord ***Hunters of the Heartlands Artefact Artefact Total: 1990/ 2000 Reinforced Units: 1 / 4 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 119 Drops: 10 We obviously don't care about drops here. This is why we lose to Morathi and 15 Bloodstalkers sometimes. I hope these help you guys with some inspiration. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 9 hours ago, Boggler said: Hide contents Double MBMK, Double Mount Trait, Tripple Warchanter! But wait? No Fast Un? This makes sense, as the mean-un is meant to help clear out screens. With Mega bossy the 2 MKs can get a bunch of Gruntas to follow them and just create absolute havoc in the enemy's lines right from the start. If anything gets nuked by impact hits or combat, the gruntas will just continue in, to tie stuff up. It does rely on knowing exactly when and how to engage, outside of Waaagh the gruntas got trouble getting through tougher units with high saves, as they do not hit nearly as hard for the points as Brutes do, nor do they have the efficient staying power of ardboyz, so this is very much a finesse list. Positioning of the chanters will also be critical if going for a big engage, in order to have any steam the following turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rougarou Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 Good morning, gentlemen. Hope you all are doing well. After a long hiatus from AoS my group of friends and I are starting up again and I’m running Ironjawz. My question for y’all is the load out for Brutes and Gore Gruntas. Is the jagged gore hacka a better option than the pig iron and brute choppas? We don’t play on a competitive level, just playing for gits ‘n shiggles but I’d like to at least put up a good fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobberto Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) I've been running gore hackas on the brutes and choppas on the pigs. I run the Brutes in stacks of ten, so fighting two deep is important with the new coherency rules. Trading one attack for everyone fighting and an extra rend is well worth it. I could maybe see the choppas on a five-stack, but even then the extra rend feels like an upgrade. For the Gore Gruntas it's a closer choice, I think. They don't get extra rend on the spears, and with their base size the extra inch doesn't help them quite as much with coherency - there's a bit more flexibility but a six-stack still has to do some interesting positioning to get everyone fighting. The main tradeoff for the extra attack is getting the charge mortals on a 2+ instead of a 3+. I think in general I'd start with choppas, but if you're digging for impact hits or think you're gonna be charging them multiple times (oh hi, Bloodtoofs) then the spears may be worth it. Edited October 13, 2021 by Bobberto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riddlesworth Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 8 hours ago, Scurvydog said: outside of Waaagh the gruntas got trouble getting through tougher units with high saves, as they do not hit nearly as hard for the points as Brutes do, 9.77 wounds from grunta gore hackas at -1 rend. Plus 2.33 mortals on the charge Vs 4 at -2 rend, 1.33 damage 2 at -2 rend and 1.33 damage 2 at -1 rend (7.99 all in) Can't remember what the cut.off is where Brutes out perform gruntas. I think it's 3+, but could be 4+. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew G Posted October 13, 2021 Share Posted October 13, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, riddlesworth said: 9.77 wounds from grunta gore hackas at -1 rend. Plus 2.33 mortals on the charge Vs 4 at -2 rend, 1.33 damage 2 at -2 rend and 1.33 damage 2 at -1 rend (7.99 all in) Can't remember what the cut.off is where Brutes out perform gruntas. I think it's 3+, but could be 4+. A lot of variables that can affect this (Unit sizes, Warchanter buff, charge no/charge, fighting 4+ wound enemy, all out attack), but assuming just warchanter buff, there's not an appreciable difference in damage unless the Brutes rend negates a save stack and gets the enemy off a 2+ save. Which is obviously very highly valuable in this meta. Against 3+ armor w/ warchanter: Brutes with -2 rend Gore Gruntas with Choppas (not including MW for charge): Upsides for me are Brutes still do appreciable damage w/o warchanter buff where gruntas really fall off. Their overall kit is just better suited for fighting 3+ armor monster heroes who can save stack and roar you. Obviously, negating 1 wound models for objective holding is situationally one of the most impactful rules in the book. Edited October 13, 2021 by Andrew G 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizianolol Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 Im very curious how GW consider megaboss anility to give ca to 3 units about all out attack or all out defence. Some people say you cant others say you can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted October 14, 2021 Share Posted October 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Tizianolol said: Im very curious how GW consider megaboss anility to give ca to 3 units about all out attack or all out defence. Some people say you cant others say you can Yea if GW does not release a FAQ soon I can't bring my Ironjawz to any of the November events I am currently signed up for, as there are only a couple of week to a cut off date on FAQ release, and with the pace and lack of communication going at at GW right now, I am very very worried... (All events require FAQd tomes around here) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5kaven5lave Posted October 15, 2021 Share Posted October 15, 2021 On 10/14/2021 at 12:18 PM, Tizianolol said: Im very curious how GW consider megaboss anility to give ca to 3 units about all out attack or all out defence. Some people say you cant others say you can Scroll back a page or two and you can read up on the unending debate to your heart’s content 😅 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 I've lost 3 times now to my buddies Soulblight. Belladoma Vhordrai Radukar the beast Blood coven throne (general) Necromancer 2x20 zombies 2x10 wolves (one is summoned) I'm running Ironsunz 2xMBoMK. General, mighty Waaagh leader, Amulet & Fastun + Destroyer 2 WC 10 Brutes (sometimes 2x5) 2x5 ardboys 2x3 pigs I've tried penetrating his castle. Getting through the screens turn 1 is essentially impossible. Then on his turn he debuffs the absolute ****** out of me. Never quite seen that much debuffing. Prince V then one shots MK. I've tried letting him go first to set up the counter punch. It's a pretty strong game plan this way but by turn 3 the attrition war is lost against death. What do you guys think? Any tips? It feels like Darksouls hardmode. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holy_Diver Posted October 16, 2021 Share Posted October 16, 2021 7 hours ago, Chase said: I've lost 3 times now to my buddies Soulblight. Belladoma Vhordrai Radukar the beast Blood coven throne (general) Necromancer 2x20 zombies 2x10 wolves (one is summoned) I'm running Ironsunz 2xMBoMK. General, mighty Waaagh leader, Amulet & Fastun + Destroyer 2 WC 10 Brutes (sometimes 2x5) 2x5 ardboys 2x3 pigs I've tried penetrating his castle. Getting through the screens turn 1 is essentially impossible. Then on his turn he debuffs the absolute ****** out of me. Never quite seen that much debuffing. Prince V then one shots MK. I've tried letting him go first to set up the counter punch. It's a pretty strong game plan this way but by turn 3 the attrition war is lost against death. What do you guys think? Any tips? It feels like Darksouls hardmode. So, my 2 cents: - first and foremost, the dogma: the fact that you can charge turn 1 doesn't mean you have to. Ironsunz is the counter-attackt ribe, so try to exploit their command ability against the opponent's key units. - split pigs in 2 units is a mistake, despite coherency (ANY of your unit must hit hard and maximize attivation) - no wizards? Really? - consider a 15x Ardboyz unit, for living home with a good anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wazzuli Posted October 17, 2021 Share Posted October 17, 2021 On the topic of lists, I've a 1k tournament coming up and was thinking of this list. I'll take all the help I can get lol. Allegiance: Ironjawz - Warclan: Da Choppas - Mortal Realm: Ghur - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line - Triumphs: Indomitable Leaders Orruk Megaboss (140)* - Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact) Orruk Warchanter (115)* - Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact) - Warbeat: Fixin' Beat - Lore of the Weird: Bash 'Em Ladz Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)* - Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork Battleline 5 x Orruk Brutes (160)* - Jagged Gore-hackas - 01x Gore Choppas 5 x Orruk Brutes (160)* - Jagged Gore-hackas - 01x Gore Choppas 10 x Orruk Ardboys (170) - 02x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers - Reinforced x 1 Units 3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150) - Pig-iron Choppas Core Battalions *Warlord Additional Enhancements Artefact Total: 985 / 1000 Reinforced Units: 1 / 2 Allies: 0 / 200 Wounds: 84 Drops: 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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