Karragon Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 And just to put the nail in the coffin, from the core rules FAQ: Quote Q: Some abilities allow you to either pick, change or replace a dice roll with the roll of your choice. Does this happen before or after any re-rolls or modifiers? A: Unless noted otherwise in the ability, it happens before any re-rolls or modifiers are applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyOcean Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) I don't think the DD / pink horror interaction is ambiguous. In AoS, all dice have both an unmodified value (what it says on the dice) and a modified value (after all modifiers apply). The general destiny dice rule states the dice cannot be modified, meaning that these only have a modified value and no unmodified value. Now the new FAQ says that in the case of battleshock, the destiny dice is modified by the number of slain models "as normal". So, now we are back to the "normal" state of the dice having both a modified and unmodified values. If the unmodified value is a 1, then you get your d6 horrors back. Edited February 3, 2020 by BillyOcean 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrix Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 My interpretation is based on if an item A with the exception of situations B and C counts as D,E, or F then item A in situation B or C does not count as D,E, or F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, BillyOcean said: Now the new FAQ says that in the case of battleshock, the destiny dice is modified by the number of slain models "as normal". So, now we are back to the "normal" state of the dice having both a modified and unmodified values. If the unmodified value is a 1, then you get your d6 horrors back. The problem is the wording tends to say the unmodified part of the battleshock roll isn't a unmodified part anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyOcean Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Grotruk said: The problem is the wording tends to say the unmodified part of the battleshock roll isn't a unmodified part anymore. I think this is why the "as normal" wording is so important. The normal state of affairs is that we add the modifier to get the modified value, but remember that the dice also has an unmodified value as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Forrix said: My interpretation is based on if an item A with the exception of situations B and C counts as D,E, or F then item A in situation B or C does not count as D,E, or F. My reading is destiny dices can summon a guild of summoner except if Kairos rolls a modified 1 when he tries to cast a pink horror spell Tzeentch won, we will spend our entire lives on this question Edited February 3, 2020 by Grotruk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou_Cypher Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 I think that actually might be the case. Destiny Dice of 1 are still unmodified regardless of how many other additional modifiers are added afterwards. Destiny Dice of 1 would trigger both D6 Horrors returning and nothing flees because it's an unmodified 1. But it has to be 1, no other dice. 2 is useable, but no abilities are linked to rolling an unmodified 2 so it gets all the penalties and modifiers that happen after the initial 'roll.' 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daramiz Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 So does the ruling on LoC being unable to change DD rolls mean that Mastery of Magic is officially a modifier? In that case, can Mastery of Magic no longer be used to complete the Mass Conjuration agenda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Well, for sure everyone should submit a rules question about the DD ruling to AOSFAQ@gwplc.com Hopefully we get a quick reply and save ourselves from heated debates at the table Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Daramiz said: So does the ruling on LoC being unable to change DD rolls mean that Mastery of Magic is officially a modifier? In that case, can Mastery of Magic no longer be used to complete the Mass Conjuration agenda? Good question. I guess not, as I don't see a different interpretation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Sumanye said: Well, for sure everyone should submit a rules question about the DD ruling to AOSFAQ@gwplc.com Hopefully we get a quick reply and save ourselves from heated debates at the table Debating for hours can be a tournament strategy Seriously, i agree there is no way to conclude without a DD answer Edited February 3, 2020 by Grotruk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyOcean Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 This FAQ has raised a lot of questions. And some of those Questions are bound to get Asked Frequently.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 +++ MOD HAT +++ Two points... 1. Please keep things civil, I'm not happy about how some of you are behaving too each other 2. This set of FAQs was always going to raise edge case questions, please remember there is AoSFAQ@gwplc.com to send questions to - if enough questions are sent now the FAQ may get a minor revision 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddpainting Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Daramiz said: So does the ruling on LoC being unable to change DD rolls mean that Mastery of Magic is officially a modifier? In that case, can Mastery of Magic no longer be used to complete the Mass Conjuration agenda? The new Faq says it counts as unmodified "In addition, any rolls that have been replaced (with the exception of save rolls and battleshock tests) count as unmodified rolls and cannot be re-rolled or modified further." Or am i missing something? Just b.c a faq says you can no longer use an ability in 1 spot doesn't mean its instantly something else, it just means there are more restriction on that ability. EDIT: But yes we should email them. I just see it as an unmodified roll still that has already been re-roll.. aka changed via DD so it can no longer be change further. Edited February 3, 2020 by Maddpainting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJohansson Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, Maddpainting said: The new Faq says it counts as unmodified "In addition, any rolls that have been replaced (with the exception of save rolls and battleshock tests) count as unmodified rolls and cannot be re-rolled or modified further." Or am i missing something? Just b.c a faq says you can no longer use an ability in 1 spot doesn't mean its instantly something else, it just means there are more restriction on that ability. I think you are missing the following commentary: Q: If I spend 2 destiny dice to change the casting roll for a Lord of Change, does the ‘Mastery of Magic’ ability change the result of the destiny dice that I used for the casting roll? A: No. Hence the follow up questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddpainting Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, NJohansson said: I think you are missing the following commentary: Q: If I spend 2 destiny dice to change the casting roll for a Lord of Change, does the ‘Mastery of Magic’ ability change the result of the destiny dice that I used for the casting roll? A: No. Hence the follow up questions. No i know about that. And DD says you can not re-roll or mod any further. Ok well look at what a Modifier is; Modifier a + or a - onto a value, changing the roll is not a modifier as Modifiers are cumulative. So MoM acts as a RR not a mod. Edited February 3, 2020 by Maddpainting 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddpainting Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Also there is this if it helps. Q: Some abilities allow you to either pick, change or replace a dice roll with the roll of your choice. Does this happen before or after any re-rolls or modifiers? A: Unless noted otherwise in the ability, it happens before any re-rolls or modifiers are applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 For Mastery of Magic, to me it isn’t clear why they arrived at the conclusion that you can’t change a DD with a LoC. In my view, Mastery of Magic is neither a modification nor a re-roll, and since GW didn’t comment on the reasoning behind the ruling, it seems impossible to draw conclusions for other rules such as Mass Conjuration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Back to destiny dice: Do I have to declare that I use one (or more) DD BEFORE rolling something or after seeing the dice rolls (and replace the failed ones by a DD)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 minute ago, GeneralZero said: Back to destiny dice: Do I have to declare that I use one (or more) DD BEFORE rolling something or after seeing the dice rolls (and replace the failed ones by a DD)? You use destiny dice instead of a roll. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinfullyvannila Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 I’m still utterly baffled how the battleshock modifier got past playtesting and editing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 I think the main issue from the beginning is the DD wording "unmodified roll" have a lot more consequences than intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elescapo Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, Grotruk said: I think the main issue from the beginning is the DD wording "unmodified roll" have a lot more consequences than intended. If they had instead worded it: "In addition, any rolls that have been replaced count as unmodified rolls and (with the exception of save rolls and battleshock tests) cannot be re-rolled or modified further." ...it would work as I think they intend it, and there would be little or no debate. All I've done is move the parenthetical clause about saves and battleshock from before "unmodified rolls" to after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) In fact i don't understand why they wanted no modifier at all. Why couldn't I benefit a +1 to hit on a DD roll for example ? (Am I missing something ?) I think they should have made DD to be considered as a "natural/unmodified" roll which coud be modified after (as a "normal roll") Edited February 3, 2020 by Grotruk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freejack02 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Sinfullyvannila said: I’m still utterly baffled how the battleshock modifier got past playtesting and editing. Because the GW rules writers are legitimately bad at their collective job... there's simply no other conclusion. When new release rules need immediate erratas, and those erratas need immediate erratas... people just aren't being held accountable for their work. Time and time again we've seen this; and I don't expect it to change. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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