whispersofblood Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Ser_namron said: Ya even ignoring the ability to get an extra +1 attack because its a terrible sequence of events to properly use it, the run and charge would have made her useable. But alas, thats not how the cookies crumbled, and she wont see any use outside fun snek lists imo. I think the real issue is the wholly within 12", if it was 15" I think she would be fairly decent in an MSU build. Small aside she can be included in the Khalibron, Temple Nest which is neat. She isn't terrible, the profile is actually pretty decent, just mediocre I suppose which is probably the definition of damning with faint praise. 😅 She does let you deploy a little deeper, which is something... yeah as far as a tool goes, can probably do without it, but the model is real cool. Oh well competitive builds exclude most warscrolls she won't be the first hero deemed surplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gokken Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) I still get called that guy for playing DoK, and i honestly dont feel they are as powerful as the used to be, Hag and witches being 100 and 120 points from 60 and 100 hurt a lot! but I like the army and painted and collected warhammer since I was 7, now I am 30. I must admit I share the concern of most people here, with the book being called Morathi and it nerfs so many of our already less than great units. what they should have done with the ironscale, was the +1 attack should come from kills period, so if she killed a dude with a throw in the shooting phase bam +1 attack. Also they should have made it so, once she had 1 kill it would stay active, "when an Ironscale kills an enemy this, sends nearby melusai into a frezy, giving them +1 to attack while within of the ironscale. or atleast if its not permanent, make it so it can proc on her shooting attack, then you have a incentive to use it on something els than heroes. Kept crystal touch as it was, just make so it based on models and still have the same hit, so you could buff it with catacism, but not the new + attack abilities. Basicly like what evocators have, why do I have to kill snakes to use the ironscale ability?! and why does snake have to wait to use mortal wounds?! thereby risking getting killed? and why would i heal a freaking medusa by killing my own guys?! they are insanely squishy everything kills, me I don't need to kill them myself....... This whole thing just seems so misguided for the design of this army. The morathi changes, I don't know much about them I never like use great epic models and 600 points is a lot, but I don't see any other way to deal with shooting armies? The hero taxing in this army is getting out of hand a cauldren is a must, now she is a must, 2 hags are a must, that is 1000 points right there. I used to run cauldren guard, with 2 cauldrens and 70 witches. I like how this army was really fast and able to do huge amount of damage, maybe some of the most damage of all the armies out there, but today it feels like the army is just a bad save, and no benefits, because all other armies basicly have better saves and the same if not better damage. I really like the cauldren model and the gaurd battalion. But I don't know if thats still viable, it seems like witches are the most viable thing but they are not even that viable with all the shooting. This is what I used to play Haq queen 100 Slaughter queen on cauldren 330 Hag on cauldren 290 Witches x 30 with knives 300 witches x30 with knives 300 witches x 10 with bucklers 120 Doomfire warlocks x5 140 Lifetakers x5 80 Lifetakers x5 80 Bloodsister x5 140 Battalion Cauldren guard. Now with the new hero from Shadow and pain I was thinking this, bloodsisters offers a way to deal with good saves model, without smashing it with a cauldren, also they are not insanely slow anymore! but 140 is steep for her. Hag Queen (100) - Prayer: Catechism of Murder Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood (290) - Prayer: Blessing of Khaine Ironscale (140) UNITS 5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80) 5 x Doomfire Warlocks (140) - Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor 30 x Witch Aelves (300) - Pairs of Sacrificial Knives 10 x Witch Aelves (120) - Pairs of Sacrificial Knives 10 x Witch Aelves (120) - Knives and Bucklers 15 x Blood Sisters (420) 10 x Khinerai Lifetakers (160) BATTALIONS Cauldron Guard (120) The fun thing about this list is everything is pretty fast, warlocks/khinerais/bloodsisters/witches, and I get fewer drops with Cauldren guard. I painted 60 witches with knives, so yea not gonna paint another 60 with shields.... Both are run as Hagnar, but Im afraid the squishyness is to much, and I will just die instantly, there is a lot of Idoneth, KO, Seraphon, Big waagh, Tzeetch in my group, and all of them more or less nukes my entire in a few turns, if not turn 1. I got more bodies in the second list and some rend. Anyone got some thoughts on the two setups? Edited November 11, 2020 by Gokken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasrod Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 Zainthar Kai Morathi Beeg and Morathi Leetle - 600 Witch Elf x 10 - 120 [Dual Blades] Witch Elf x 10 - 120 [Dual Blades] Witch Elf x 10 - 120 [Dual Blades] Khinerai Heartrenders x 20 - 360 Khinerai Heartrenders x 20 - 360 Khinerai Heartrenders x 15 - 270 Command Point - 50 2000/2000 Is this going to win? Nah, probably not. Will it give your friend trust issues for the rest of their life when you get the bottom of turn 1 --> top of turn 2 double turn? Yes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chumphammer Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 5 hours ago, Nasrod said: Zainthar Kai Morathi Beeg and Morathi Leetle - 600 Witch Elf x 10 - 120 [Dual Blades] Witch Elf x 10 - 120 [Dual Blades] Witch Elf x 10 - 120 [Dual Blades] Khinerai Heartrenders x 20 - 360 Khinerai Heartrenders x 20 - 360 Khinerai Heartrenders x 15 - 270 Command Point - 50 2000/2000 Is this going to win? Nah, probably not. Will it give your friend trust issues for the rest of their life when you get the bottom of turn 1 --> top of turn 2 double turn? Yes. Looks fun! I wish there was a better way of lifetakers getting into combat. Least Heartrender can maybe move on a 4+ Trying to throw around ideas all the time atm to get something I wanna try. another i just added was: Hag Narr Morathi: Mindrazor - 600 Hag on Cauldron: General, Devoted Dis, Iron Circlet, Blessing of Khaine: 290 10 Sisters of Slaughter with Bucklers: 120 10 Sisters of Slaughter with Bucklers: 120 10 Sisters of Slaughter with Bucklers: 120 20 Blood sisters: 480 20 Shadow Warriors: 220 command Point: 50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixieproxy Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 ****** I wish we had the points for the Shadowstalkers already. Hopefully they come soon, or when Azyr is updated for Broken Realms 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 hour ago, pixieproxy said: ****** I wish we had the points for the Shadowstalkers already. Hopefully they come soon, or when Azyr is updated for Broken Realms I am guessing it'll be 110 pts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chumphammer Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 (edited) Its its 110 id probably swap them for the shadow warriors in the above list If they are battleline would open some more options Either the app update or Winter FAQ for points. Maybe we will see some more changes then also Edited November 12, 2020 by Chumphammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutton Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 A 100 point battleline option would be rad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 43 minutes ago, Mutton said: A 100 point battleline option would be rad. Unlikely though. why? -> Melusai Ironscale ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucentia Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 I can't imagine Shadowstalkers being battleline, given they're supposed to be some sort of elite assassin unit, but somewhere around the 110pt mark seems reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chumphammer Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 Hehehe Hag Narr Morathi: 600 MindRazor Gotrek: 520 Hag Cauldron: 290 (General, Blessing, Devoted, Iron) 30 Sisters of Slaughter: 300 Bucklers 10 Witch Aelves: 120 Bucklers 10 Witch Aelves: 120 Bucklers Command Point or Emerald life swarm: 50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graywater Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 47 minutes ago, Chumphammer said: Hehehe Hag Narr Morathi: 600 MindRazor Gotrek: 520 Hag Cauldron: 290 (General, Blessing, Devoted, Iron) 30 Sisters of Slaughter: 300 Bucklers 10 Witch Aelves: 120 Bucklers 10 Witch Aelves: 120 Bucklers Command Point or Emerald life swarm: 50 You love your gotrek lists. Maybe he can get to where he wants to be if big morathi can pin some units in and let him run up the board for a turn or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chumphammer Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 27 minutes ago, Graywater said: You love your gotrek lists. Maybe he can get to where he wants to be if big morathi can pin some units in and let him run up the board for a turn or two. I just get bored at work and like writing lists lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graywater Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 Alright, snake list attempt 2, because i can't help myself. zainthar Kai Morathi mindrazor Medusa-general-shadowstone-shroud of despair ironscale-crown of woe 15 blood sisters 10 blood sisters 5 blood sisters 5 blood stalkers Vyperic guard 2000 on the nose. 2 drops. Idea is I have one primary snake unit to act as an immediate threat. Their threat range can be large enough to force opponents to deploy too conservatively, in which i can allow them to go first without fear, or I can launch across the board turn 1 with even below average rolls if their deployment is poor. 2 units of 5 to screen/grab objectives and a backup 10 snake unit to act as cleanup crew or be a threat in a second location. The 15 snake unit can get 5 attacks per model if I need them to, so even getting 2 or 3 into a unit can be pretty impactful. I've focused on bravery debuffs with spells and artifacts to help make up for the lack of a shrine and have a few different ways to make sure mindrazor is getting its +1 damage effect. The army strictly loses to KO, but I think it has a decent matchup against a lot of other armies. Gonna try it out tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chumphammer Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 3 hours ago, Graywater said: Alright, snake list attempt 2, because i can't help myself. zainthar Kai Morathi mindrazor Medusa-general-shadowstone-shroud of despair ironscale-crown of woe 15 blood sisters 10 blood sisters 5 blood sisters 5 blood stalkers Vyperic guard 2000 on the nose. 2 drops. Idea is I have one primary snake unit to act as an immediate threat. Their threat range can be large enough to force opponents to deploy too conservatively, in which i can allow them to go first without fear, or I can launch across the board turn 1 with even below average rolls if their deployment is poor. 2 units of 5 to screen/grab objectives and a backup 10 snake unit to act as cleanup crew or be a threat in a second location. The 15 snake unit can get 5 attacks per model if I need them to, so even getting 2 or 3 into a unit can be pretty impactful. I've focused on bravery debuffs with spells and artifacts to help make up for the lack of a shrine and have a few different ways to make sure mindrazor is getting its +1 damage effect. The army strictly loses to KO, but I think it has a decent matchup against a lot of other armies. Gonna try it out tomorrow. Id awap spells with Morathi and Medusa. Shrouds a really low cast and medusa getting rerolls of 1/+1 is much better for MR Also...I think its 3 drops Morathi (both version) medusas and 3 of the units are batallion, but I think it only covers 2-3 Blood Stalkers/Sisters And Maybe 4 depending on Wording/FAQ as Batallion says Morathi-Khaine not shadow queen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graywater Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, Chumphammer said: Id awap spells with Morathi and Medusa. Shrouds a really low cast and medusa getting rerolls of 1/+1 is much better for MR Also...I think its 3 drops Morathi (both version) medusas and 3 of the units are batallion, but I think it only covers 2-3 Blood Stalkers/Sisters And Maybe 4 depending on Wording/FAQ as Batallion says Morathi-Khaine not shadow queen So the battalion has both forms of morathi, the medusa, ironscale, and 3 of the snake units. Then one unit is outside of the battalion. So should be 2. 2 reasons I chose the spells on who I did. First is morathi is going to stick around way longer than the medusa, so mindrazor is safe. She still gets +1, so its not too inconsistent. Then between the +1 and reroll 1s on shadowstone, you have a really decent chance of getting the 8+ to do -d3 bravery instead of just 1. Edited November 14, 2020 by Graywater 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxicious Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 9 hours ago, Graywater said: Alright, snake list attempt 2, because i can't help myself. zainthar Kai Morathi mindrazor Medusa-general-shadowstone-shroud of despair ironscale-crown of woe 15 blood sisters 10 blood sisters 5 blood sisters 5 blood stalkers Vyperic guard Interesting list. Really looking forward to your experiences playing it. Sadly from what I have read here and seen from the new book, I feel like the, lets call it interesting, design of crystal touch forces us even more into the typical playstyle of Hag Narr, Hags and Cauldron for two reasons: 1. Crystal touch being at the end of combat forces us to protect our snakes as good as possible to get the most out of it. Therefore we need to buff their defense as much as possible. 2. Due to the damage of crytal touch missing more enemy models are going to strike back, leading to more losses and an increased importance of the battleshock phase. That being said, one other approach could be focussing on their normal attack, buffing it up as much as possible and more or less ignore crystal touch or just use it as a bonus to remove remaining wounds/models. I feel like your list might be able to pull this style off, as long as there is no always fights first or heavy shooting involved, as you noted yourself. There is lots of synergy in this list between Blood Sisters, Morathi, Ironscale, Cobra Kai, Vyperic Guard, Mindrazor and Shroud of Despair and I like it. However it remains quite fragile. Really interested in seeing how it works for you on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaskier Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 11 hours ago, Graywater said: zainthar Kai Morathi mindrazor Medusa-general-shadowstone-shroud of despair ironscale-crown of woe 15 blood sisters 10 blood sisters 5 blood sisters 5 blood stalkers Vyperic guard Not sure if it would be better, but have you considered dropping the 15 snake unit down to 10 and instead bumping up the Stalker unit to 10? They arguably synergize better with Morathi-Khaine's command ability than Blood Sisters do, especially given you won't have a Cauldron/Hagg Narr to enhance your staying power in combat. I just worry that even with a 15 Blood Sister unit not enough will survive combat to reach your own hero phase to benefit from that command ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graywater Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 3 hours ago, foxicious said: Interesting list. Really looking forward to your experiences playing it. Sadly from what I have read here and seen from the new book, I feel like the, lets call it interesting, design of crystal touch forces us even more into the typical playstyle of Hag Narr, Hags and Cauldron for two reasons: 1. Crystal touch being at the end of combat forces us to protect our snakes as good as possible to get the most out of it. Therefore we need to buff their defense as much as possible. 2. Due to the damage of crytal touch missing more enemy models are going to strike back, leading to more losses and an increased importance of the battleshock phase. That being said, one other approach could be focussing on their normal attack, buffing it up as much as possible and more or less ignore crystal touch or just use it as a bonus to remove remaining wounds/models. I feel like your list might be able to pull this style off, as long as there is no always fights first or heavy shooting involved, as you noted yourself. There is lots of synergy in this list between Blood Sisters, Morathi, Ironscale, Cobra Kai, Vyperic Guard, Mindrazor and Shroud of Despair and I like it. However it remains quite fragile. Really interested in seeing how it works for you on the table. Yeah, super fragile. Its an actual glass cannon build. If buffed properly, 15 snakes are doing 75 attacks at 3+/3+/-2/ 2 damage. With the damage coming out per snake, I dont mind stringing out along the front line to engage with as many units as possible. Pile in gets me within an inch of one unit that I dont plan on attacking who become the target for the crystal touches. The idea being that if I can cripple enough of the units theyre engaged with, then the snakes have a decent chance of surviving. You know, best defense is a good offense. 2 hours ago, Jaskier said: Not sure if it would be better, but have you considered dropping the 15 snake unit down to 10 and instead bumping up the Stalker unit to 10? They arguably synergize better with Morathi-Khaine's command ability than Blood Sisters do, especially given you won't have a Cauldron/Hagg Narr to enhance your staying power in combat. I just worry that even with a 15 Blood Sister unit not enough will survive combat to reach your own hero phase to benefit from that command ability. Making rhe unit of bow snakes a unit of 10 is something im considering. I wouldnt do it by dropping the 15 to 10 though. At least not at first. Like I said above, the idea is I need to put as much damage as possible in that first activation I get, and 10 doesn't have the numbers id like to see for this, nor the footprint to stretch across multiple units. I look at morathi's new command ability as a nice bonus, but not something im going to try to rely on. The bows do benefit from not needing to be in combat to be effective with it, but im not sold on their output yet. I think investing heavily into bows requires you to build into an army that is going to stick around for a few turns, as they need multiple activations to do their damage over time. But this army doesn't survive that long. It needs to frontload the damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chumphammer Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Peter is using Khelibron Morathi (withering) Medusa (general, mistress of illusion, shadowstone, mindrazor) 10 Blood SIsters 5 Blood SIsters 5 Blood SIsters 20 Blood Stalkers Vyperguard So 2 drop and hoping for shooting spam turn 1. I just think thats a lot of points in that 1 unit and the medusa is very easy to kill to lose MR/Teleport. Its interesting to see how different the dok might evolve. Not getting regular games is going to dampen testing games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurinTurambar Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Quote Peter is usingKhelibronMorathi (withering)Medusa (general, mistress of illusion, shadowstone, mindrazor)10 Blood SIsters5 Blood SIsters5 Blood SIsters20 Blood StalkersVyperguard Vyperic guard is a battalion exclusive to Zainthar Kai, you cannot use it in Khailebron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejnar Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 6 hours ago, Graywater said: Yeah, super fragile. Its an actual glass cannon build. If buffed properly, 15 snakes are doing 75 attacks at 3+/3+/-2/ 2 damage. With the damage coming out per snake, I dont mind stringing out along the front line to engage with as many units as possible. Pile in gets me within an inch of one unit that I dont plan on attacking who become the target for the crystal touches Newbie here. How do you buff The sisters with the extra rend and damage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graywater Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Dejnar said: Newbie here. How do you buff The sisters with the extra rend and damage? The mindrazor spell gives an extra rend to a daughters of khaine unit. You get extra attacks from 2 sources. Shadow queen morathi gives +1 attack to melusai units wholly within 18 inches if she is within 3 inches of an enemy unit herself. Then, zainthar Kai has a command ability that gives +1 attack to melusai units wholly within 12 inches of a hero. 11 minutes ago, TurinTurambar said: Vyperic guard is a battalion exclusive to Zainthar Kai, you cannot use it in Khailebron I see people saying this, but im not seeing where this is in the book. Could you direct me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejnar Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 17 minutes ago, Graywater said: The mindrazor spell gives an extra rend to a daughters of khaine unit. You get extra attacks from 2 sources. Shadow queen morathi gives +1 attack to melusai units wholly within 18 inches if she is within 3 inches of an enemy unit herself. Then, zainthar Kai has a command ability that gives +1 attack to melusai units wholly within 12 inches of a hero. I see people saying this, but im not seeing where this is in the book. Could you direct me? Excellent. Thanks. But what about each attack doing 2 damage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graywater Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Just now, Dejnar said: Excellent. Thanks. But what about each attack doing 2 damage? Thats mindrazor too. You always get the extra rend, but it has a bonus affect wherein if you have a higher bravery than your opponent, you get +1 damage as well. It's our best spell in the lore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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