AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Kirjava13]

So I know what I might end up facing on Thursday. The other players have:

Sylvaneth; Nurgle; Slaanesh; Seraphon; Legions of Nagash; Skaven; Beastclaw Raiders; Stormcast; Ironjawz.

I'm sure there's at least one more player with a DoK army, so this might not be everything, but I need to start thinking about dealing with these guys. Anyone have experience fighting these armies? I've only fought Stormcast and Sylvaneth, and one game against Slaanesh way back when.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Kirjava13

[Darkhan]

@Gwendar I have not played against Seraphon yet! I can imagine tho. Worst I'm facing atm is Slaanesh....I mean wtf...

And Tzeentch changehost, I HATE them so much. Like I really hate the army😂1 million spells, insane bonus to cast, massive horde clearing. summons up the ass. 

I can't stand them.

[Gwendar]

@Kirjava13 I think it will largely be the same as most games; Kill heroes ASAP with that WLC\Fiends\Spells and hope you do enough damage early on against those summoning armies (Seraphon, Slaanesh and Nagash especially) while keeping those 100 Clanrats alive as best you can. It doesn't look like you'll be dealing with a ton of deepstriking, so you may be able to play it more aggressively on those games and won't need your Clanrats to be meatshields all-throughout. That video by Dan Brewer is still golden for understand how to use Clanrats which I argue are some of the best objective takers in the game with retreat + charge +14" movement max. DoK will obviously be trouble if you don't take Morathi (assuming they have her) down to 3 wounds T1 before they change her; otherwise she'll be around pretty much the whole game and on Hero controlled objectives you won't be moving her.

I think your easiest matchups with be IJ, Beastclaw and Stormcast. I haven't played against new Sylvaneth as of yet and Nurgle's Plaguebearers (or big Blightking units with the amount of wounds) will be your biggest issue against them on holding objectives and being nearly immune to shooting with the -to hit debuffs. Anyway, good luck.. eager to hear back.

@Darkhan I would argue Slaanesh is worse anyway so I don't envy you. The summoning on top of the overall damage output more than makes up for the lack of teleportation.. it's pretty nuts. Our Tzeentch player is taking a break for the unforeseeable future, but I never had an issue playing against them.. honestly, my full spellcaster list outdoes them most of the time and the Corruptor with SoJ squishes those heroes and Kairic\Tzaanogor units with Plague. Even normal lists do well against them thanks to our 30"-36" threat range on Jezzails or Windlaunchers; and you definitely aren't hiding a LoC or Gaunt on BW behind anything to avoid that. Normally, I just hold back my Clanrats T1\2 to avoid the horde spells, kill the heroes that do that (LoC\Gaunt usually) and then rush in as they're now pretty much completely crippled from the loss of either of those heroes.

I will say, that with everyone's spellcasting going up a level in these tomes, it really worries me how Tzeentch will be once they get theirs.. oh boy.

[Darkhan]

@Gwendar he runs the gaunt & LoC, loc having the once per battle you can’t shot at him. Rest is pinks, blues and yellows. 

Just endless chaf. The same list as the guy from BOBO, who played against the Skaven player with 9 stormfiends. Video of it at honest wargamer youtube channel.

What is your spellcasting list?

Edited August 11, 2019 by Darkhan

[Gwendar]

@Darkhan Yeah, I watched it but I don't really remember it other than Tzeentch winning.. the commentary with those guys tends to keep me from enjoying their footage a lot of the time as I can't really focus on or hear what's happening.

Since the WLV change, I've since dropped Thanquol and now use this but I haven't had a chance to use it yet.. same concept so it should work as well as the previous version:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Verminlord Warpseer (300)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic 
Verminlord Corruptor (280)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Verminlord Deceiver (300)
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Chain Warp Lightning
Grey Seer (140)
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Endless Spells / Terrain
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Vermintide (40)
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 147
 

You could drop 20 Clanrats and "upgrade" the Grey Seer to the Bell, but in this particular case I think they Grey Seer on foot works out better as you really need those bodies for objectives and Wither is just an amazing spell compared to Crack's Call. With this, I have access to 2 forms of -1 to hit and since I usually play in games that use realm spells, I have plenty of options for the 2nd spell cast for those not using it on an endless spell. Corrupter gets Dreaded SL'ed into an important hero, Plagues a horde unit or throws out the Aethervoid\Geminids while the AW is regular SL'ed and is the one that uses WLV to teleport back to safety during movement from a Gnawhole.

Better hope your dice are good because like Tzeentch, your games are going to be won or lost based on how well the Hero Phase goes 90% of the time as there isn't much damage coming out otherwise (aside from the Deceiver and Corruptor murdering heroes\elites).

Edited August 11, 2019 by Gwendar

[Darkhan]

@Gwendar neat list!:) ill save it and try it out myself. No shooting, but 3 verminlords gotta look hell of cool on the board! 

[Darkhan]

13 hours ago, Darkhan said:

@Gwendar neat list!:) ill save it and try it out myself. No shooting, but 3 verminlords gotta look hell of cool on the board! 

Jez, misspost, wrong forum. Good job quoting myself.

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Darkhan

[MisterJoshua]

On 8/11/2019 at 6:12 PM, Gwendar said:

 

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Verminlord Warpseer (300)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic 
Verminlord Corruptor (280)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Verminlord Deceiver (300)
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Chain Warp Lightning
Grey Seer (140)
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Endless Spells / Terrain
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Vermintide (40)
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 147
 

 

What tool are people using to show their army lists in this format? I’ve been using the official warscroll builder but they seem to come out differently

[Gwendar]

@MisterJoshua I just use the https://www.warhammer-community.com/warscroll-builder/ when I post them here, otherwise I build them in Azyr. Just hit the question mark in the top left and copy the full or short list version, paste. Done.

[MisterJoshua]

Ah, so simple! I’ve been downloading the pdfs but never clicked the question mark!

I’ll be playing a 1k game soon (maybe this weekend) and am looking to take the below. I think it’s pretty solid for the points level.

 

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- General
- Trait: Deranged Inventor  
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer (140)
- Artefact: Snoutgrovel Robes  
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blades
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blades

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 86

Edited August 12, 2019 by MisterJoshua
Adding spoiler

[Gwendar]

Close to what I have planned at 1k and Meeting Engagements. 6 Stormfiends are hard to shift at that level. Though..it doesn't work as well in ME due to the reserves format and no one around here plays it as it's restrictive and tends to favor certain armies more-so than standard 1k does, so, yeah.

[MisterJoshua]

For MEs I think I’ll combine the rats to a 40 with spears, and split the fiends into 2 3s (cos I’d have to unless they went in the rearguard) putting one in the spearhead and one in the rear.

I’ve enjoyed the MEs I’ve played. I think the problem for this list is that you ideally want virtually nothing in the rearguard and this would have quite a bit unless I brought the Seer on alone in that slot, or kept the rats as 2 20s and put them in the rear. That might be best actually. Hmm

[PiotrW]

Hey guys!

I'm trying currently to build a Skaven army. So, here's a question I have: how many Warlock Engineers do I need? It's a Leader unit, so do you field just one of these rats, or do people usually use more?

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, MisterJoshua said:

For MEs I think I’ll combine the rats to a 40 with spears, and split the fiends into 2 3s (cos I’d have to unless they went in the rearguard) putting one in the spearhead and one in the rear.

I’ve enjoyed the MEs I’ve played. I think the problem for this list is that you ideally want virtually nothing in the rearguard and this would have quite a bit unless I brought the Seer on alone in that slot, or kept the rats as 2 20s and put them in the rear. That might be best actually. Hmm

I did that initially, but decided I would try my 1st using all 6 in a rearguard and throwing in 5 Gutter Runners in the main body. I dunno, I would experiment but it's mostly only new players that do 1k around here and everyone else, including myself, sticks to 2k 90% of the time. Now with Warcry, people around here seem even more focused on that for a small game so I don't think I'll be seeing 1k\ME in the forseeable future unless I'm teaching someone, etc.. which I obviously don't use those games as competitive gauges.

53 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

Hey guys!

I'm trying currently to build a Skaven army. So, here's a question I have: how many Warlock Engineers do I need? It's a Leader unit, so do you field just one of these rats, or do people usually use more?

Well, if you're fielding pure Skryre (as in 100% of your list is Skryre units or only has the 1 Masterclan unit as General) I would say at least 1 Arch-Warlock and 1-2 Engineers.

If you do what most of do and just bring along 1-2 units of Skryre that benefit from buffs really well, then I usually only take 1 AW as he's incredible for his points.. but a single Engineer can work too if you need those 60 points elsewhere.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Gwendar

[PiotrW]

2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Well, if you're fielding pure Skryre (as in 100% of your list is Skryre units or only has the 1 Masterclan unit as General) I would say at least 1 Arch-Warlock and 1-2 Engineers.

If you do what most of do and just bring along 1-2 units of Skryre that benefit from buffs really well, then I usually only take 1 AW as he's incredible for his points.. but a single Engineer can work too if you need those 60 points elsewhere.

I see! Quick question: which units would count as Skryre? I don't have the battletome yet...

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

I see! Quick question: which units would count as Skryre? I don't have the battletome yet...

AW, Engineer\Bombardier, Stormfiends, Acolytes, Warpfire Throwers, Ratling Guns, Warp-Grinder, Jezzails, WLC, Doomwheel and Doomflayer..

..aka, most units.

[Kirjava13]

By the Horned Rat, how do I deal with an army which consists of Nagash, Arkhan and three units of skeletons? I am squirting the musk of fear.

[Num]

I had another game with my 2k army.

This time 1v2 - me versus 1k idoneth and 1k slaneesh.

I lost round 5 with 13 points to 15. It was a really tense and close game. I'm not sure I will be able to do a full battle report, but here were my key learnings:

- the endless spells continued to disappoint... WLV at 13" is way too hard to cast I feel. Casting it after a teleport is highly uncertain, as you need to succeed both the teleport and the WLV. I failed twice. Casting it in the melee comes too late to make enough impact. The soulsnare shackles did not do much. The balewind vortex neither, as the extra range could not be put to much use and the extra spell neither. I think I will drop all the endless spells and focus on the realm ones, unless I could find another shenanigan... What were your experiences post nerf?

- 6 stormfiends MVP but they need a bravery boost or battle shock immunity... I again lost one on a 6. Some powerful opponents can wipe 2 stormfiends in one phase so it becomes very risky. I feel that babysitting is a must... I'm thinking of throwing a unit of 9 and an allied Chaos Sorcerer Lord for that reroll 1s on save, hit, wound (but it costs 160pts...). It can also serve as a backup for a failed MMMWP.

- skitterleap is great... Gnawholes are great... How do you abuse these? What about an assassin with Gnawbomb? Or I'm thinking about a couple of warp grinders...

- I find the cannons still very random. I may focus on stormfiends instead (or jezzails).

- for a long time I have been playing clanrats in 20s to focus on other things. But they again won me objectives... Just one alive is enough to capture points left unattended behind. Having 40 clanrats makes it more likely to have survivors. I'm going to up clanrats to 40.

 

All in all, my list is becoming similar to the one posted by

@Gwendar

[Darkhan]

2 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

By the Horned Rat, how do I deal with an army which consists of Nagash, Arkhan and three units of skeletons? I am squirting the musk of fear.

9 jezzails! Snipe him down! 

Spark them, mmwp! PEW PEW!

[Skavelynn]

4 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

By the Horned Rat, how do I deal with an army which consists of Nagash, Arkhan and three units of skeletons? I am squirting the musk of fear.

Skeletons are super slow, so you won't have to worry about them for a turn or 2 while they march up the table or wait in the grave.  Shooting spam is for sure the way to go, just unload everything you got onto Nagash. Sniping down Arkhan if you get first turn could also be a good idea, he's only got 11 wounds and a volley of buffed jezzail shots can down him easily. Killing Arkhan means less magic, less skeletons being brought back, and less range on Nagash's spells. Without that extra 6" range, Nagash is going to rely heavily on the umbral spell portal or moving to more vulnerable positions to be in range to even cast most of his spells on you. Killing Nagash asap will basically ensure your victory though 😝

 

[Fert]

So, just to check.  I can have two characters with verminous valor?

Running Warbringer as general with command trait of verminous valor.

Then, I have a Clawlord also with verminous valor due to this ability;

 "Mighty Warlords: each non-general Clawlord may take a Command Trait, and no Clawlord can can take the same trait."

Seeing as my general isn't a Clawlord and my Clawlord isn't taking the same trait as another Clawlord....

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by Fert

[Gwendar]

6 hours ago, Num said:

- the endless spells continued to disappoint...

- 6 stormfiends MVP but they need a bravery boost or battle shock immunity... I again lost one on a 6. Some powerful opponents can wipe 2 stormfiends in one phase so it becomes very risky. I feel that babysitting is a must... I'm thinking of throwing a unit of 9 and an allied Chaos Sorcerer Lord for that reroll 1s on save, hit, wound (but it costs 160pts...). It can also serve as a backup for a failed MMMWP.

- skitterleap is great... Gnawholes are great... How do you abuse these? What about an assassin with Gnawbomb? Or I'm thinking about a couple of warp grinders...

- I find the cannons still very random. I may focus on stormfiends instead (or jezzails).

- for a long time I have been playing clanrats in 20s to focus on other things. But they again won me objectives... Just one alive is enough to capture points left unattended behind. Having 40 clanrats makes it more likely to have survivors. I'm going to up clanrats to 40.

- Yeah, as you saw from my batrep, not getting off Skitterleap completely crushed the plan of recasting WLV top right, but these things happen. However, that 13" range really is worse than initially anticipated. It worked against that Fyreslayers player thanks to the easy deployment and him not understanding it and piling everything front and center on deployment.. so it was great, especially since he had no dispels. I'm largely considering dropping it for the next few games and seeing what I can do with those 100 points. I feel the same about your other choices as they work hand in hand with it.. BW is it's own thing and I think it can still be useful, especially with Skitterleap but.. I'm usually already strapped for points.

- The thing with the Fiends is that they're about as resilient in terms of BS as everything else in the army and we have a lot of tools to deal with that now and my go-to is the Warpseer 99% of the time. You can easily keep him center of the board for the most coverage and unless your Fiends on the fringes, they should be in range.. especially a unit of only 6. You'll likely be babysitting them with an Engineer\AW anyway and he can just use IP when needed. I will ALWAYS BS immune them if I have a spare CP. Like you, I always roll 6's and they aren't worth taking a chance on.

- Gnawholes seldom get abused from my experience. People know what they do and even 1 model on it can make it impossible to use. Placement is still important and generally 1 goes in my deployment, and 2 are on the sides; never in their deployment unless they are extremely low model count and it would be beneficial to do so... Gnawbomb on the other hand is a whole other deal that really works well from what I've seen. For Skitterleap, aside from launching an AW up to throw out WLV, it's utility can come in it's surprise to snag an empty objective out of nowhere or a lightly guarded one if you throw a Verminlord or something up there and make that charge. I'm toying with the idea of a Grinder for Monks or Fiends.

- They are, but not having to hit is their strongpoint. I prefer Jezzails as 6 isn't a ton more expensive and they're far more consistent. Not that WLC's are bad, but I don't think they work as well unless you're bringing at least 2 at 2k; they're definitely a big target that people are afraid of.

- 20 can be great as a screen, but as always they will surprise opponents, especially with their speed on a run. I take 80 minimum, but am pushing my more competitive lists to 100-120.

Overall, cool to see your opinions on things after a 2v1 (something I want to try myself, seems fun) but always remember to get at least a couple games in with a setup to really gauge your feelings.

5 hours ago, Darkhan said:

9 jezzails! Snipe him down! 

Spark them, mmwp! PEW PEW!

@Kirjava13 I mean... yeah, in that scenario shooting is your friend and I think that point needs to be frontloaded right into their undead faces. That army in particular when it comes to Death absolutely needs its Heroes or it's almost always an instant loss. You do that T1\T2 with few casualties and you're doing great.

[Kirjava13]

So you guys have seen the list I'm taking. I've got my ranged Stormfriends, my WLC, my spells and that's it as far as ranged goes. Skeleton Pope has 16 wounds, a 3+ save and a 4+ mortal wound shrug. I am preemptively failing my Battleshock test.

[Num]

8 hours ago, Gwendar said:

- Yeah, as you saw from my batrep, not getting off Skitterleap completely crushed the plan of recasting WLV top right, but these things happen. However, that 13" range really is worse than initially anticipated. It worked against that Fyreslayers player thanks to the easy deployment and him not understanding it and piling everything front and center on deployment.. so it was great, especially since he had no dispels. I'm largely considering dropping it for the next few games and seeing what I can do with those 100 points. I feel the same about your other choices as they work hand in hand with it.. BW is it's own thing and I think it can still be useful, especially with Skitterleap but.. I'm usually already strapped for points.

 

What if we were to use the Warp Lightning Vortex as a melee support spell? Throw it on a unit we are going to charge with clanrats. The unit takes damage. Movement phase, the unit takes damage again. The clanrats charge and lock the unit into melee.

Next turn, everyone takes damage (clanrats included), but, well, that is what they are here for.

It would take several turns for the locked unit to escape the WLV, assuming we protect the clanrats from battle shock.

The wizard could then cast WLV from closer to the combat area. With a few more spells in addition (death frenzy, wither, plague, or warp lightning storm, mmmwp...).

I feel that the spell casters now work better from a closer range, as does the WLV.

I'm going to test it like this next time, with blobs of 40 clanrats...

 

as for the gnawbomb, I always wanted to have a Skaven army in which each turn sees hordes of Skaven sent from one side of the map to another. Endless hordes coming from everywhere.... I have seen a deal for 160 clanrats and 40 giant rats which I am considering, to add to my 100 clanrats and 80 giant rats...

 

[Cosmicsheep]

Hi guys, looking for a little help with my 2k moulder list. This is what I have so far:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide
Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
- General
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Master Moulder (100)
- Artefact: Rabid Crown  
2 x Rat Ogors (100)
2 x Rat Ogors (100)
2 x Rat Ogors (100)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
3 x Packmasters (60)
3 x Packmasters (60)
10 x Wolf Rats (200)
3 x Stormfiends (260)
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Fleshmeld Menagerie (160)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 144
 

 

Possible considerations are:

1. Dropping  5 Wolf Rats, 2 rat ogres and 3 packmasters  (260pts) for another 3 stormfiends
2. Dropping Thanquol and 3 packmasters (460pts) for Screaming Bell and another 3 stormfiends
3. Dropping 5 Wolf Rats (100pts) and taking 2 more rat ogres and having 2 units of 4

Thoughts?

P.S. I don’t own any endless spells or verminlords. I have another master moulder, 2 rat ogres, 3 stormfiends and 3 packmasters 😃

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Cosmicsheep