The Rumour Thread

[Sception]

The nighthaunt article is... interesting.  The faction abilities are significantly toned down, with their charge debuffs limited to one each per turn and also restricted in what units can inflict each one, and retreat and charge removed from faction traits altogether (though there's a subfaction that puts it back).  The default charge debuff also depends on outnumbering the opponent, which instantly flips Nighthaunt from being all MSU all the time to wanting some hoardy bulk.

Reduced faction traits can be a good thing - the 3e NH faction traits did so much that there arguably wasn't any room left to do much of interest with their actual warscroll rules, making their many melee units in particular feel very samey.  Hopefully then their actual units are buffed up a bit and diversified some to compensate, since the faction overall already wasn't exactly on top of the pile.  That said, even reduced, the traits are still pretty impactful, and they are much more controllable now, you don't have to rely on good charge rolls to get -1 save or, especially, strike last, you just need a cav or hero unit to charge with respectively.

Since the battle traits are still charge based, the other battle formations will have to be particularly potent if they want to be viable choices next to the previewed deathstalker's retreat and charge.  that used to be army-wide, and will be sorely missed by anyone who plays one of the other formations.

My main issue with the nighthaunts previously was the lack of sufficient differentiation between their various melee units, and my main concern after seeing the faction traits is that the units themselves won't be buffed up enough to compensate for the weaker faction rules.  So it's a little disappointing that the warscroll previews lean so heavily towards the heroes rather than the units themselves.

That said, while of course actual effectiveness in game will depend on points costs and the rest of the army, I'm not unhappy with the warscrolls shown here.  Olynder's healing ability should be pretty impactful, her passive debuff... I don't know, we'll have to see how tightly contested objectives are in this game.  Her spell is fantastic, though.  Her melee offense isn't anything to write home about for a faction figurehead, though that's not really her role, though I do wish her ranged attack were a little more impactful and reliable.  IMO mortal damage instead of -3 rend would have been fair if they were going to make you deal with the swinginess of a d6 damage roll.

Reikenor however is likely to remain my favorite nighthaunt special character.  Fast, flying, and an absolutely brutal melee profile against any priest or wizard unfortunate enough to come within charge range.  signature spell is... meh, but there should be decent offerings between the spell lore and manifestations to take advantage of his +1 to cast (while wounding an enemy unit) or +1 to cast and power level (if wounding himself instead).

I guess they're putting renewed effort into making unit size = box size, since harrows have been demoted from hero to unit-of-two.  That bodes well for my hopes of skeleton warriors going up to units of 20, but poorly for my equally fervent hopes of returning to dire wolves in units of 5.  As a unit... hrm.  Increased command buff while charging would in theory synergize with olynder's debuff aura.  Teleport as expected.  They're cav, so they'll activate the -1 save on a charge, and two of these are probably cheaper than 5 hexwraiths (and certainly look cooler).  That's probably where their main utility will be.

nice to see the myrmourn up to 2 wounds each, one wound each in the past was way too fragile for a unit of 4.  decent counterspell ability against offensive magic, but in the past the strongest spells have always been friendly buffs, while in the new edition it's likely to be manifestations, neither of which target enemy units, so I'm not sure how effective the banshee squad will actually be against magic heavy enemies in practice.

I will say, the previewed units are pretty much all support units, apart from reikenor whose more of a character assassin.  That's all well and good, they look to be some decent support, but whether any of that matters will come down to whether the factions bedrock units - rasps, reapers, blades, etc - are actually worth supporting.

 

the spearhead pictured looks like it was painted in a single lunch break, while playing it in a game of Spearhead.  And still looks pretty cool - nighthaunt can paint up so fast, why did I make my scheme so time consuming?  previewed spearhead rules are mostly lesser versions of the main faction rules - good for learning the faction I guess, and will make graduating to full aos feel like an upgrade.  Not surprising since, iirc, the nighthaunt box was on the high end for number of points in the vanguard box, and it doesn't have any obvious elite stuff to force into reserve.

overall the article seemed interesting and I mostly like what's shown, but it doesn't answer my main concerns about the faction going into 4e.

And while it brushes up on the faction's lore & background, it doesn't hint at any answers to the questions I've had there since the end of second edition - just what have Olynder and her nighthaunt processions been up to since the end of the necroquake and Nagash going on sabbatical?

Edited May 24 by Sception

[Grungnisson]

4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Might be different now that save boosts are more rare and most units can't become pseudo-ethereal anymore by stacking them.

Can't see how that would affect Nighthaunt though.

[Grungnisson]

AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON LADY OLYNDER THE MORTARCH OF MEH

[Freemeta]

Quote

Other Battle Formations let you transport entire units of spirits across the battlefield with the Vanishing Phantasms, or enlist the Hunters of the Accursed to sap the souls from enemy Heroes with your own champions. Should you prefer to cluster your gheists around the chilling aura of a Black Coach, the Procession of Death uses malign magic to bolster their durability.

greatest changes, sub-faction traits boosting a  very specific unit was horrible, this is far more interesting.

[Lucentia]

I dunno, the number of times I've seen NH players spike a bunch of 4+ saves to completely blunt an assault, I'd be very wary of bumping anything ethereal to a base 3+ save (See also, Neferata, Zombie Dragon, etc.)

[Sception]

15 minutes ago, Grungnisson said:

AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON LADY OLYNDER THE MORTARCH OF MEH

Eh, she looks potentially decent to me.  passive debuff aura, one big heal per game, double caster with an absolutely brutal debuff spell - especially for a faction that leans so heavily into debuffs, being able to shut off any buffs the opponent might try to counter them out with is a big deal.  And some decent ranged damage output, which is nice to have on a behind the lines support piece.

They absolutely could have pushed her further - I would have made her gaze deal mortal damage and given her +1 to casting to begin with.  And I suppose her passive debuff could have been more threatening, but I like how it dovetails with her fluff that the entire reason Nagash needed a new mortarch to lead the nighthaunt was that they were too wild and uncontrolled to actually capture objectives, and so the nighthaunt mortarch now actually improves the army's ability to do exactly that.

Still, even as is, she could be a solid, even faction defining piece, if they give her an appropriately aggressive points cost, and if spirit hosts keep their bodyguard rule.

Edited May 24 by Sception

[Err0rBu5]

Is there a possibility of a teaser for chorfs when the release the 4th edition box do we think?

[Grungnisson]

13 minutes ago, Sception said:

Eh, she looks potentially decent to me.  passive debuff aura, one big heal per game, double caster with an absolutely brutal debuff spell - especially for a faction that leans so heavily into debuffs, being able to shut off any buffs the opponent might try to counter them out with is a big deal.  And some decent ranged damage output, which is nice to have on a behind the lines support piece.

They absolutely could have pushed her further - I would have made her gaze deal mortal damage and given her +1 to casting to begin with.  And I suppose her passive debuff could have been more threatening, but I like how it dovetails with her fluff that the entire reason Nagash needed a new mortarch to lead the nighthaunt was that they were too wild and uncontrolled to actually capture objectives, and so the nighthaunt mortarch now actually improves the army's ability to do exactly that.

Still, even as is, she could be a solid, even faction defining piece, if they give her an appropriately aggressive points cost, and if spirit hosts keep their bodyguard rule.

So we're agreeing she should not be above 200, yes?

And how does that compare to other Nagash's finest?

[BarakUrbaz]

5 minutes ago, Err0rBu5 said:

Is there a possibility of a teaser for chorfs when the release the 4th edition box do we think?

I think its likely if we're getting Chorfs they'd be teased far in advance in a similar way to the Cities revamp or the Lumineth initial release,  but I kind of suspect that is too early. Maybe they'll get an April Fools announcement next year like the Leagues of Votann. 

[Acrozatarim]

I've found myself with a slightly odd conundrum. Inspired by the prospect of getting Skaventide, I bought a Warlock Bombardier as a colour scheme test. This worked well and I've nearly finished, but I want to refine the colours somewhat so want to buy something else Skaven to continue with, as we're still all waiting for the launch box.

Except, of course, there's not much to buy, with so many things being pulled for new kits. The stuff that's left tends to either be old models in severe need of a remake (like Night Runners and Plague Monks), big expensive centrepieces and warmachines who are a bit beyond being colour scheme test material, or Underworlds warbands who gods know if they'll even be supported in AoS in the new edition or not.

So I'm left sort of twiddling my thumbs and wondering what to do next.

[dmorley21]

These Nighthaunt changes are so good. A ton of quality of life improvements, while also looking really strong. Also some major changes.

Nighthaunt can’t stack debuffs now, but get them automatically and don’t need to retreat out of combat and charge again to get their buffs. So much time saving. 

Lady Olynder’s one per game ability is now really powerful, and much less random.

Dreadblade Harrows are finally units instead of heroes. 

Myrmourn Banshees are now two wounds.

The battle formation is really powerful.

Just a lot to love. Mine are coming out of the cabinet.

[Ragest]

I do love the nighthaunt ff

[Clan's Cynic]

It's Friday, so it must be time for another Dawnbringer Chronicle. 

Quote

 

Gunnar Brand is in action with the rest of his Oathbound this week, in a final clash before Dawnbringers Book VI : Hounds of Chaos goes on pre-order tomorrow. He thinks he’s doing Archaon’s work… but is he really?

 

Edited May 24 by Clan's Cynic

[ScionOfOssia]

9 minutes ago, Grungnisson said:

So we're agreeing she should not be above 200, yes?

And how does that compare to other Nagash's finest?

We literally don’t know yet. She’s the first Mortarch we’ve seen and we don’t know how the points shake out this edition. The only other Death Hero in a similar standing we know anything about is Nagash himself.  

[Snarff]

1 minute ago, Acrozatarim said:

I've found myself with a slightly odd conundrum. Inspired by the prospect of getting Skaventide, I bought a Warlock Bombardier as a colour scheme test. This worked well and I've nearly finished, but I want to refine the colours somewhat so want to buy something else Skaven to continue with, as we're still all waiting for the launch box.

Except, of course, there's not much to buy, with so many things being pulled for new kits. The stuff that's left tends to either be old models in severe need of a remake (like Night Runners and Plague Monks), big expensive centrepieces and warmachines who are a bit beyond being colour scheme test material, or Underworlds warbands who gods know if they'll even be supported in AoS in the new edition or not.

So I'm left sort of twiddling my thumbs and wondering what to do next.

Underworlds Warband? Extremely cool sculpts, not just a single hero, not overly expensive, can easily be proxied and you can play Underworlds with them.

You can also go for Gnawholes/Endless Spells, but that won't allow you to really practice the colour scheme for the rats themselves.

[Sception]

4 minutes ago, Grungnisson said:

So we're agreeing she should not be above 200, yes?

And how does that compare to other Nagash's finest?

Most of nagash's other mortarchs are big monsters, where they opted to make Olynder just a fancy infantry hero.  I'm not sure why the sculptors didn't go more over-the-top with her, but they didn't.  While I think the previewed warscroll could make for a decent unit, I do admit that she's underwhelming compared to what you'd expect to see from other mortarchs.  She's closer to what you might expect from, say, a belladamma volga than a neferata or arkhan.  more 'subfaction leader' scale than 'faction leader' scale.

but beladamma volga has still been a fantastic unit on the table, and imo this version of olynder could be as well.

Exact points should depend on how points play out across the board, which we really haven't seen yet, but I'd definitely expect her to be around 200, certainly closer to 200 than to 300.  I'd pay more for her than for the previewed version of Reikenor, but not ~a lot~ more.  If she's 300 or above I'd expect her to see little use until the periodic points updates knock her down fair bit.

 

[HCMistborn]

I have to say, that Nighthaunt scheme for the spearhead is really nice. I like how cold it looks.

[Starfyre]

With four faction previews under our belts over the last couple of days, I can safely say that I don't like the universal rules of wizard, ward and fly being in the keywords, and I don't like the text around when you use an ability being in the frame. Maybe it'd be different if I had a physical card in front of me.

Given the rules have supposedly been re-written from the ground up and the changes are so fundamental that everything is getting indices, all the army stuff so far seems to have just riffed on what we previously had, and in some case I just find harder to read.

Some of the declare steps are too involved simply to offer a -1 to hit effect IMHO.

All just feels a bit bland and unexciting to me so far.

Dreadblade Harrows being a cavalry unit is how they always should have been, that's a good change.

[Ejecutor]

5 hours ago, Starfyre said:

Lords of the Rings?

A GW original.

[Gothmaug]

1 hour ago, GenericEdgyName said:

Seems quite good. The biggest change is that now the effect of the charge depends on the unit type. 

Also Rend, lots of rend. I feel like nighthaunt were sorely lacking rend in earlier editions, and every unit seems to have it now. Though i haven't played them in a few years, so my memory could be faulty on that front. 

[Acrozatarim]

6 minutes ago, Snarff said:

Underworlds Warband? Extremely cool sculpts, not just a single hero, not overly expensive, can easily be proxied and you can play Underworlds with them.

You can also go for Gnawholes/Endless Spells, but that won't allow you to really practice the colour scheme for the rats themselves.

Yeah, I was eyeing the Underworlds bands as they're very cool models - but I didn't want to load up on ratties who're then gonna be overlooked in the new indices. That said, as you mention, some of them are viable proxies etc. I'm not super interested in actually playing Underworlds, though one of my Soulbound ttrpg group is a big cheerleader for the game, so maybe...

And yeah, I was eyeing Gnawholes and Endless spells in general, but I definitely don't want to tackle stuff like that as yet, rather than something smaller and featuring the actual colour scheme

[Ejecutor]

4 hours ago, EntMan said:

Are we expecting the final Friday story today? It's been a cool season of free fiction 😀 

I do.

[Ejecutor]

3 hours ago, Dragon-knight77 said:

Yes, im going to call it and say it probably going to be a Darkoath one rather then Abraxia

Honestly i don't think i found any of the free fiction a miss. Callis and Toll 2 parter, the Trugg vs Gael, the Gloomspite assassination attempt & skryre pissing mach were my favorite

Still find it funny they gave the Disspossed a short then give Beastmen on last hurah

100%

Dawnbringer Chronicles XXIX – An Oath Sworn Unto Vermin - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com

[Flippy]

1 hour ago, Grungnisson said:

My first proper disappointment this edition. I was really hoping NH heroes would get a Save bump to 3+.

Ethereal 3+ followed by a 5+ ward? 😱

[Snarff]

1 minute ago, Acrozatarim said:

Yeah, I was eyeing the Underworlds bands as they're very cool models - but I didn't want to load up on ratties who're then gonna be overlooked in the new indices. That said, as you mention, some of them are viable proxies etc. I'm not super interested in actually playing Underworlds, though one of my Soulbound ttrpg group is a big cheerleader for the game, so maybe...

And yeah, I was eyeing Gnawholes and Endless spells in general, but I definitely don't want to tackle stuff like that as yet, rather than something smaller and featuring the actual colour scheme

Underworlds has become much more accessible than before now that warbands actually come with a full viable deck of cards. I honestly think it's a very fun game (provided you don't try to minmax a deck with cards from all past warbands and sets). It's very different and though I think Warcry is my favourite GW game, UW is pretty close to it.

But if you're eying something smaller, you can always buy the Deathmaster? It's new, won't be replaced anytime soon and has plenty of cloth and metal to practice the scheme on. Though it can be easily proxied by the eshin UW warband leader as well depending on which sculpt you prefer.