The Rumour Thread

[cyrus]

16 hours ago, DinoJon said:

Any rumors as to what the next WH+ subscription models will be? Is it possible we'll get an Oldblood on foot for it? While I wouldn't mind it would kind of crush the hope that we'll see templeguard if the RE is for a Warhammer+ release. 

Too plain and too similar to saurus warriors to be an hero  : it’s either updated saurus guard or a war cry warband with guard in it .

 

[MitGas]

9 hours ago, ScionOfOssia said:

If I had to rank things in terms of “Need a refresh”, it’s Ogors then Cities, then DoK. 

If it’s “Needs an expansion”, it’s IDK=KO>FS>=OBR>Everyone else. KO and IDK are tiny ranges, FS just looks visually homogeneous and isn’t super large either, while the OBR feel 3/4ths complete and are small as well. 

Tzeentch needs an expansion now too after losing heroes and all allied troops. 

[Mr_Whateley]

On 7/16/2024 at 4:55 PM, Draznak said:

You're likely to be angry for a while, because unless our great seer returns soon, chaos dwarfs will be keeping a low profile for at least a year, if not more I'd say.

I can work with that: I have lots of scenery that work wonders for CHORFS so I can set myself into painting it and be prepared for the launch, as opposite to every other army I've collected in 30 years.

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

2 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

Then it is interesting. Maybe we have the Glutos/ Zenestra equivalent for Skaven in the follow-up wave.

It's called the 'Too Lazy To Walk' hero type. 

[Jagged Red Lines]

17 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Iirc Valrak's said the 40k one will probably be a Blood Angel.

For my money, I bet the AoS one will be a Skaven of some sort. The designers seem very fond of their 'diorama'-esq models for their Heroes now and timing wise it would fit nicely with Skaventide and their new releases. 

Then again the Karskin and Vampire were both pretty random. If they look to artwork again, maybe it'll be this iconic Warlord?

Maybe queek, as SG Warhound suggested in rumours.

[PraetorDragoon]

3 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

Then it is interesting. Maybe we have the Glutos/ Zenestra equivalent for Skaven in the follow-up wave.

Now I'm imagining a way too fat skaven being pulled by a swarm of small rats.

[Asbestress]

1 hour ago, Mr_Whateley said:

I can work with that: I have lots of scenery that work wonders for CHORFS so I can set myself into painting it and be prepared for the launch, as opposite to every other army I've collected in 30 years.

I've also been holding onto my Dominion hobgrots, Horns of Hashut, and metal Chorfs while waiting for confirmation.

Going to take the new Core Book as a sign and actually put some paint on them after I'm done with my Cities backlog.

[Ejecutor]

It would be so cool to have teasing posts monthly like the ones we get currently for LoTR for smaller games like Warcry or UW:

Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game – Hail the Last King of Gondor - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

It could be a rotation of weekly/ by-weekly posts depending on the game:

Necromunda, BB, Imperiales, HH, Warcry, UW, TOW and LoTR.

With 8 on the list, I can easily see two of them each week, so you have a monthly rotation.

[AquaRegis]

5 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

It would be so cool to have teasing posts monthly like the ones we get currently for LoTR for smaller games like Warcry or UW:

Middle-earth Strategy Battle Game – Hail the Last King of Gondor - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

It could be a rotation of weekly/ by-weekly posts depending on the game:

Necromunda, BB, Imperiales, HH, Warcry, UW, TOW and LoTR.

With 8 on the list, I can easily see two of them each week, so you have a monthly rotation.

Mesbg is one of GWs best games, only held back by how difficult it is to get hold of some miniatures and the glacial update and release schedule. Rivendels basic infantry are from back when the first film released. 

I really hope these new models will breathe new life into the game. Especially since they are going for the Fall or Arnor. 

[Vaellas]

18 hours ago, YoghurtKobold said:

If only IDK would finally receive some proper love. Everyone mentions Fyreslayers as neglected army but IDK received exactly one foot hero model since their release about 6 years ago if not counting Underworld’s warbands.

Unfortunately those rumours really do look fake. Akhelian knights? And what exactly is Akhelian guard then?

To add to this those Underworld warbands are also now legends as well meaning Akhelian Thrallmaster is only usable release that came our after their launch.

Considering the Warcry schedule as been adding warbands for armies that had no bespoke team it very much feels like one is on the Horizon and I really hope more releases come too.

[GloomkingWortwazi]

I can hear Underworlds death rattle from here... 👻

[Clan's Cynic]

Metawatch interview about Spearhead and 'Casual Matched Play'.

And another new statement to reiterate when people act like Legends is totally outlawed:

Quote

Legends miniatures aren’t suitable for tournament play. In Casual Matched Play, however, they are positively encouraged! Due to their limited availability, Warhammer Legends are restricted in competitive events to maintain a fair playing field – but we very much encourage their use in Casual Matched Play. From a Studio perspective, Warhammer Legends should be considered legal in all Casual Matched Play games throughout the entire edition, whether they be games with your friends or at your local club.

 

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

7 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

And another new statement to reiterate when people act like Legends is totally outlawed:

 

Well, that's positively unequivocal! Bravo.

Once I've finished painting the Thricefold Discord, I'll be fielding them with gusto. 

[Baron I_oyd]

6 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

I find it odd that a novel refers to an unreleased miniature with 100% detail, but it could be one of the follow-up minis indeed.

About novels pointing to legend minis... #neverforget:

Ngl the Stormcast looks fire..can I get his number ?

[Matrindur]

22 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

And another new statement to reiterate when people act like Legends is totally outlawed:

If they want to do this they should probably separate matched play and tournament play even more. The problem why people act like they can't play legends is because for both at home games and tournament games you both play "matched play". So you always have to make sure with your opponent if he is fine with legends units as one version of matched play encourages them and another bans them.

If instead there was its own "tournament play" (at least with its own ban list) and matched play was just the casual but balanced version I think people wouldn't mix them together this much.

But at least its a good step in the right direction to say it clearly in an article even if many probably won't see it.

Edited July 18 by Matrindur

[Ogregut]

13 minutes ago, Matrindur said:

If they want to do this they should probably separate matched play and tournament play even more. The problem why people act like they can't play legends is because for both at home games and tournament games you both play "matched play". So you always have to make sure with your opponent if he is fine with legends units as one version of matched play encourages them and another bans them.

If instead there was its own "tournament play" (at least with its own ban list) and matched play was just the casual but balanced version I think people wouldn't mix them together this much.

But at least its a good step in the right direction to say it clearly in an article even if many probably won't see it.

That's literally what they've done in the article. There is tournament match play and casual match play. 

Tournament match play doesn't use legends (or anything else the To doesn't want), in casual match play legends are fair game

[pnkdth]

39 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

And another new statement to reiterate when people act like Legends is totally outlawed:

The most common reaction, least in my experience, is that Legends is a soft-squatting. Rules will fall behind and eventually points drops and changes won't be enough (if they even bother to change them at all). I have rarely had issue getting a game with units/armies from legends the crux of the matter is lack of support over time makes them obsolete either from having seriously janky rules or ending up so uninspired they get shelved on the virtue of being boring to play. That is a player choice but eventually that choice is more or less made for them.

That said, I think there's plenty of people who really want to take their previously supported army to events. For those players, being put into Legends is being barred from attending with their chosen army (or units for certain factions).

I understand why this happens (as it happens with many other systems) since supporting an ever-growing model range eventually becomes unsustainable. Let's not act as if this isn't a big deal or a non-issue for those who own/play these factions/units though.

I mean, they are saying Legends are not suitable for competitive play. That alone will affect the attitude of the broader community. For casual/friendly matched play I've rarely had an issue with getting a game with Legends, army or unit, but there definitely had been issues when playing people who do enjoy the tournament scene since they do not want to prep by playing armies which won't come up in events.

In other words, this statement changes nothing for me.

Edited July 18 by pnkdth

[Pizzaprez]

4 hours ago, Mr_Whateley said:

I can work with that: I have lots of scenery that work wonders for CHORFS so I can set myself into painting it and be prepared for the launch, as opposite to every other army I've collected in 30 years.

 

2 hours ago, Asbestress said:

I've also been holding onto my Dominion hobgrots, Horns of Hashut, and metal Chorfs while waiting for confirmation.

Going to take the new Core Book as a sign and actually put some paint on them after I'm done with my Cities backlog.

I managed to snag three sets of the Red Harvest terrain when the price looked good; that stuff is really cool 

Before GW axed Horns in S2D, id built up a pretty decent chunk of infantry and converted up some really cool characters to run my Azgorh stuff as Slaves but GW didn't love that plan

I picked up a 3D printer, but honestly GW Chorf aesthetic is really cool to me and I could see myself picking some new plastics up if they're cool. Glad to see them getting some attention!

Even if AoS as a game is in my rear view at this point, lol

[Sception]

Legends don't get points updates.  Legends don't get updates for rules & edition changes.  GW only even looks at data from competitive events when considering what changes need to be made to the game, and sometimes changes very much need to be made - if Legends aren't part of that data set then they don't get updates and problems won't get fixed.

The devs can't say Legends aren't allowed in competitive because they 'wouldn't be fair,' in one breath and then say they're 'encouraged in casual' with the other.  Casual players also care about the game being fair.  If anything, they care /more/ than tournament players, who ime consider identifying and exploiting or playing around the imbalances that inevitably do exist in the system to be 'part of the game'.  I mean, that's what the 'metagame' is, that's what the 'meta' in 'metawatch' means.

Anyway, yeah, I expect the competitive matched play norm to become the casual matched play norm, regardless of the intent of the designers.  And while there will of course be individual players and clubs happy to play outside of that norm, they'll be the sorts of players and clubs that were playing outside of those norms already - using narrative rules and legends units and anvil of apotheosis heroes and even outright homebrew - and at no point needing GW's permission to do so.

Edited July 18 by Sception

[Satyrical Sophist]

33 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

The most common reaction, least in my experience, is that Legends is a soft-squatting. Rules will fall behind and eventually points drops and changes won't be enough (if they even bother to change them at all). I have rarely had issue getting a game with units/armies from legends the crux of the matter is lack of support over time makes them obsolete either from having seriously janky rules or ending up so uninspired they get shelved on the virtue of being boring to play. That is a player choice but eventually that choice is more or less made for them.

That said, I think there's plenty of people who really want to take their previously supported army to events. For those players, being put into Legends is being barred from attending with their chosen army (or units for certain factions).

I understand why this happens (as it happens with many other systems) since supporting an ever-growing model range eventually becomes unsustainable. Let's not act as if this isn't a big deal or a non-issue for those who own/play these factions/units though.

I mean, they are saying Legends are not suitable for competitive play. That alone will affect the attitude of the broader community. For casual/friendly matched play I've rarely had an issue with getting a game with Legends, army or unit, but there definitely had been issues when playing people who do enjoy the tournament scene since they do not want to prep by playing armies which won't come up in events.

In other words, this statement changes nothing for me.

They also mention the part about availability. Its a problem if something that is either not in production, or available only in a huge box suddenly becomes meta defining. A quick example of the first is something like Garrek's Reavers. They have basically always been one of the cheapest ways to get blood tithe. I don't think there is a way at the moment to give GW money for the unit, so I guess either hope you have them already or go scouring online. Another example is the new Brethren of the Bolt. Right now their legends rules have them as a 100 point unit with 10 total wounds, the champion of which is a priest. That fits in any human regiment, and the prayer lore for Cities is really nice. I think its only available in the new Underworlds starter box, and then after that will be unavailable. 

Just now, Sception said:

Legends don't get points updates.  Legends don't get updates for rules & edition changes.  GW only even looks at data from competitive events when considering what changes need to be made to the game, and sometimes changes very much need to be made - if Legends aren't part of that data set then they don't get updates and problems won't get fixed.

The devs can't say Legends aren't allowed in competitive because they 'wouldn't be fair,' in one breath and then say they're 'encouraged in casual' with the other.  Casual players also care about the game being fair.  If anything, they care /more/ than tournament players, who ime consider identifying and exploiting or playing around the imbalances that inevitably do exist in the system to be 'part of the game'.

Anyway, yeah, I expect the competitive matched play norm to become the casual matched play norm, regardless of the intent of the designers.  And while there will of course be individual players and clubs happy to play outside of that norm, they'll be the sorts of players and clubs that were playing outside of those norms already - using narrative rules and legends units and anvil of apotheosis heroes and even outright homebrew - and at no point needing GW's permission to do so.

Casual always has some balancing issues that you need to sort out. When you are just talking about club games there are always going to be things to discuss. Players have different skill levels, army choices painted etc. In a tournament you show up with your game face, and the goals are threefold, in an order than varies person to person. Win the game, have fun, be a good opponent. In casual games its heavily tilted towards the last two. If I am in a tournament and I run into an army that hard counters mine, I'll try my dang best, but its probably going to be a brutal game I'll almost certainly lose. I'm way less likely to play that match on the weekly wargames wednesdays at my local game shop, because it won't be much fun for either of us. 

[Ejecutor]

13 minutes ago, Sception said:

Legends don't get points updates.  Legends don't get updates for rules & edition changes.  GW only even looks at data from competitive events when considering what changes need to be made to the game, and sometimes changes very much need to be made - if Legends aren't part of that data set then they don't get updates and problems won't get fixed.

The devs can't say Legends aren't allowed in competitive because they 'wouldn't be fair,' in one breath and then say they're 'encouraged in casual' with the other.  Casual players also care about the game being fair.  If anything, they care /more/ than tournament players, who ime consider identifying and exploiting or playing around the imbalances that inevitably do exist in the system to be 'part of the game'.  I mean, that's what the 'metagame' is, that's what the 'meta' in 'metawatch' means.

Anyway, yeah, I expect the competitive matched play norm to become the casual matched play norm, regardless of the intent of the designers.  And while there will of course be individual players and clubs happy to play outside of that norm, they'll be the sorts of players and clubs that were playing outside of those norms already - using narrative rules and legends units and anvil of apotheosis heroes and even outright homebrew - and at no point needing GW's permission to do so.

While that's all true, they've done a pretty nice job of bringing most of the legends minis to the 4th edition, so by the point in time we are, there's no better moment to play legends minis.

[Sception]

1 minute ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

If I am in a tournament and I run into an army that hard counters mine, I'll try my dang best, but its probably going to be a brutal game I'll almost certainly lose. I'm way less likely to play that match on the weekly wargames wednesdays at my local game shop, because it won't be much fun for either of us. 

This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about when I say that casual players care *more* about game balance than competitive players.  In a competitive context there's still a reason to play that game - CAN you fight it out to a draw?  Can you do well enough in secondaries to still do alright in the event overall even if you lose?  In a casual matched play 'bring & battle' context vs. a stranger or casual acquaintance - with no larger league or campaign or specific friendship/rivalry attached - the individual game is all there is.  If you can tell going in that it's going to be a bad game, why play it at all?

I posted about how I really like the design of the underworlds units in legends especially, and I really do, but some of their points values are aggressively, probably inappropriately low.  Also several of them are priests or wizards but in the form of units, letting armies add additional chanting or casting within battalions where otherwise doing so would require adding additional battalions.  If these units are allowed in matched play as is - and part of the point of legends is that 'as is' is all you get, they're not supposed to get balance updates no matter how necessary they may be - then many of them would absolutely become go-to optimal choices for their armies, and that's a problem since GW doesn't plan to sell them anymore, and access is going to become a real pain.  3rd party substitutes and conversions will always be an option, but those aren't exactly options that GW encourages, especially at its own stores & events.

[Sception]

3 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

While that's all true, they've done a pretty nice job of bringing most of the legends minis to the 4th edition, so by the point in time we are, there's no better moment to play legends minis.

My tomb kings collection & Mourngul say otherwise.  😛

Again, I really do like the design of the units in the legends pdf.  Especially the underworlds units - I wish that had been the design approach to them from the start.  But I would personally feel very uncomfortable bringing them to a casual pick up game without discussing them with my opponent in advance.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Legends miniatures aren’t suitable for tournament play. In Casual Matched Play, however, they are positively encouraged! Due to their limited availability, Warhammer Legends are restricted in competitive events to maintain a fair playing field – but we very much encourage their use in Casual Matched Play. From a Studio perspective, Warhammer Legends should be considered legal in all Casual Matched Play games throughout the entire edition, whether they be games with your friends or at your local club. 

That statement and the recognition that non-tournament matched play exist are actually super valuable. It's not like we need permission from GW to use Legends units in our casual games, but I think the idea that matched play creates a default shared expectation and the statement that, as far as the rules guys are concerned, legends are part of that, are still very welcome and in my opinion exactly right.

[pnkdth]

2 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

They also mention the part about availability. Its a problem if something that is either not in production, or available only in a huge box suddenly becomes meta defining. A quick example of the first is something like Garrek's Reavers. They have basically always been one of the cheapest ways to get blood tithe. I don't think there is a way at the moment to give GW money for the unit, so I guess either hope you have them already or go scouring online. Another example is the new Brethren of the Bolt. Right now their legends rules have them as a 100 point unit with 10 total wounds, the champion of which is a priest. That fits in any human regiment, and the prayer lore for Cities is really nice. I think its only available in the new Underworlds starter box, and then after that will be unavailable. 

Casual always has some balancing issues that you need to sort out. When you are just talking about club games there are always going to be things to discuss. Players have different skill levels, army choices painted etc. In a tournament you show up with your game face, and the goals are threefold, in an order than varies person to person. Win the game, have fun, be a good opponent. In casual games its heavily tilted towards the last two. If I am in a tournament and I run into an army that hard counters mine, I'll try my dang best, but its probably going to be a brutal game I'll almost certainly lose. I'm way less likely to play that match on the weekly wargames wednesdays at my local game shop, because it won't be much fun for either of us. 

I get there needs to be a cycle, I just didn't think it fair to clap back at people who who had their stuff put in Legends as if it is business as usual and there's no reason to voice their discontent. The main reason there's more ruckus around AoS/40k is because when it happens here it creates bigger ripples than, let's say, in a skirmish game where you might have to replace a single model which get cut.

I also agree that rules are really important in casual/narrative play since in those circles you're not gaming the system in the same way. I do think there's a general underestimation of how many people play competitively casual, i.e. still go quite deep but without the aim of attending events.