Beliman Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 15 minutes ago, michu said: I hope for Dwarfs Crossing fingers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachmani Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 On 6/7/2024 at 8:46 PM, Hollow said: A little late to the party but overall I liked the SoB FF. My remaining big issue with them as a "faction" is that it is basically a single Gargant kit and a single Giant kit. Knights work because they are basically machines. Having multiple based off the same chassis makes sense. I just don't want to buy multiple "biological" kits as it just doesn't look right to me after 1 or 2. I doubt we will see it but I would love it if the SoB received another type of Gargant kit with a few variations and another Giant kit. It is pretty daming that even out very own King Brodd doesn't own King Brodd! Imo SoB need a "middle sized" Garganz kit (and new Mancrushers). Call it the "Bruiser", maybe with a fighting and a wizard variant and let it close the gap between the small giants and the big ones. So that you could field like 1-2 big ones, 2-4 middle sized gargants and like 2x3 mancrushers instead of 3 big ones and a bunch of small dudes. You know, add some variation to them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 19 hours ago, Chikout said: If they didn't kill off all the mortal characters, they would really be stretching logic by suggesting that everyone's been knocking back Aqua Gyranis. It's supposed to be expensive and rare. I don't think it is that hard to believe it. Why? We don't know any Timmy or Tommy who is poor and won't have access to Aqua Ghyranis, we know powerful characters with a lot of money or from powerful organizations that have access to tons of Aqua Ghyranis. Everyone around could be dead and they will still survive because they are "the ones ruling the cities". So having any kind of time jump wouldn't affect at all the Cities of Sigmar as we know them in a significant manner. They can even do it and say X or Y city was founded from this Z crusade. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBrodd Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 56 minutes ago, Rachmani said: Imo SoB need a "middle sized" Garganz kit (and new Mancrushers). Call it the "Bruiser", maybe with a fighting and a wizard variant and let it close the gap between the small giants and the big ones. So that you could field like 1-2 big ones, 2-4 middle sized gargants and like 2x3 mancrushers instead of 3 big ones and a bunch of small dudes. You know, add some variation to them. I agree. Update the Mancrusher mini and add another 3 Build Medium sized Gargant and the Faction is perfect!! That means a build option of King Brodd, 4 Megas, 3 Medium and 2 Mancrushers. Thats 10 builds. Perfection. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonhel Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 5 hours ago, Nezzhil said: That's not true. AoS Lore is based on the modern design of any living game, at some points is very predicable. It requiered two editions, but Broken Realms and third edition was very good structured. AoS Lore is advancing in the same way of games like Infinity, last Warmachine edition or Malifaux, with cliffhangers every few steps to change the point of view to other event, letting that points as events that players can get involved in a short period of time. Even HH or ToW is using that model now Arguing against AoS Lore with that kind of args is simply lying only because you want to have a justification to hate a game. Lol, don't hate the game at all. Planning to buy the starter set and we will probably play it in the same way as we did it the last couple of years. 1 - 2 evenings per month. But non of our small group are really lured in by the background. You can perfectly like the game and have zero interest in the background of AoS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draznak Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 15 minutes ago, Tonhel said: .But non of our small group are really lured in by the background. You can perfectly like the game and have zero interest in the background of AoS. It's exactly the same in my association. AoS is the most played game (an anomaly compared to 40k) but if I ask the guys, almost all of them don't care about lore. Which I find terribly sad, as I play primarily for lore (and minis). The problem is that GW no longer makes any effort to make the lore deep and attractive. They only want to sell miniatures, they don't care about the rest. Despite AoS's very good concepts, it's now just a series of events/characters that follow one another, with no real connection. I can't remember who summed it up here a few months ago, but that was exactly the problem with the current AoS lore. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomikron Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 12 minutes ago, Draznak said: The problem is that GW no longer makes any effort to make the lore deep and attractive. They only want to sell miniatures, they don't care about the rest. Despite AoS's very good concepts, it's now just a series of events/characters that follow one another, with no real connection. I can't remember who summed it up here a few months ago, but that was exactly the problem with the current AoS lore. John Blanche recently gave an interview where he said that in his last years he found that miniature designers cared less and less for historical reference and looked to video games and movies for inspiration. I think this has a massive impact. Visually, AoS is shallow modern fantasy and if this is your starting point the lore will reflect that. People can say WHFB is just fantasy Europe, or the Dwarfs and Elves are just Tolkien ripoffs but I think they’re underestimating how insanely original and trailblazing the Warhammer Fantasy world was. 3 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarouan Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 (edited) People not caring about the lore, they always existed no matter the edition. I just feel like since Matched Play is predominantly advertised by GW and influencers on the web, it's easy to ignore that aspect of the game. About the lore not being deep and attractive...to be honest, if you have known the beginning of 1st editions Warhammer Battle and 40k, lore of both wasn't especially deep and attractive either. It only became like that with decades of work (and I insist on the plural of "decades"). I still see AoS as "quite young" in comparison for that reason. GW does indeed want to sell miniatures, but it was always that way, even at the start when the lore was seen "good". It's not the explanation of why lore feels "less deep" nowadays, IMHO. There's a part of nostalgia blinding us while looking at what GW does now, IMHO. There are indeed a lot of tropes inside the nowaday lore, just like in the past "good" lore (with quite wacky examples like Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau ). The references are just changed. Edited June 9 by Sarouan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Draznak said: It's exactly the same in my association. AoS is the most played game (an anomaly compared to 40k) but if I ask the guys, almost all of them don't care about lore. Which I find terribly sad, as I play primarily for lore (and minis). The problem is that GW no longer makes any effort to make the lore deep and attractive. They only want to sell miniatures, they don't care about the rest. Despite AoS's very good concepts, it's now just a series of events/characters that follow one another, with no real connection. I can't remember who summed it up here a few months ago, but that was exactly the problem with the current AoS lore. I find comments like this really frustrating. What did GW do before that they don't do now? They never used to do free stories on their website. Did any actually bother to read the white dwarf articles about the Siege of Everquake city? Has anyone read the two big rprg narrative campaigns about Anvilgard and Greywater Fastness and the awesome city guides? Has anyone read the two awesome novels about the Van Densts? There is a huge amount of great AoS content already. I guess that people forget that Warhammer fantasy didn't even have army books until 4th edition. AoS is way ahead of the curve when it comes to narrative content. Edited June 9 by Chikout 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 12 minutes ago, Chikout said: I find comments like this really frustrating. What did GW do before that they don't do now? They never used to do free stories on their website. Did any actually bother to read the white dwarf articles about the Siege of Everquake city? Has anyone read the two big rprg narrative campaigns about Anvilgard and Greywater Fastness and the awesome city guides? Has anyone read the two awesome novels about the Van Densts? There is a huge amount of great AoS content already. I guess that people forget that Warhammer fantasy didn't even have army books until 4th edition. AoS is way ahead of the curve when it comes to narrative content. While I agree, many of us don't read what you mentioned, it would be cool if that kind of piece of lore didn't come from "side products". Obviously, you cannot put as many details on a Battletome as in a novel, but when those products with nice little bits are not part of their core products (they don't have the same treatment in terms of translations, for example) you are reducing their exposure. So yes, IMO, GW is putting a bullet on their feet in comparison with how they did things in the past where even countries like Spain or France had their very own WD version with commemorative minis being 100% exclusive. They are doing also pretty nice things that they didn't before, but not all the community gets the same coverage in terms of accessibility to those efforts made by GW. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Kim Woof-Woof Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 24 minutes ago, Vomikron said: John Blanche recently gave an interview where he said that in his last years he found that miniature designers cared less and less for historical reference and looked to video games and movies for inspiration. That's interesting. I would have said the most recent Cities of Sigmar models show a lot of homage to historical arms and armour. They certainly feel more grounded in history than, say, a flying elf boat! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomikron Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said: That's interesting. I would have said the most recent Cities of Sigmar models show a lot of homage to historical arms and armour. They certainly feel more grounded in history than, say, a flying elf boat! Blanche was certainly speaking to designers going back to 7th and 8th edition WHFB. I’m not sure I agree with CoS being historically influenced other than the fact that they use a shield and wear a helmet that resembles a kettle helm. Either way, this is reflected more in the lore. Grounded with tongue in cheek historical references vs hero fantasy. Edited June 9 by Vomikron 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 32 minutes ago, Vomikron said: John Blanche recently gave an interview where he said that in his last years he found that miniature designers cared less and less for historical reference and looked to video games and movies for inspiration That's wrong. I love Blanche (and now he is working for Trench Crusade), but I know from first hand that's not the case. There is a big diference between "the scope of our miniatures has been amplified" than "they care less and less for historical reference". 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 30 minutes ago, Vomikron said: John Blanche recently gave an interview where he said that in his last years he found that miniature designers cared less and less for historical reference and looked to video games and movies for inspiration. I think this has a massive impact. Visually, AoS is shallow modern fantasy and if this is your starting point the lore will reflect that. People can say WHFB is just fantasy Europe, or the Dwarfs and Elves are just Tolkien ripoffs but I think they’re underestimating how insanely original and trailblazing the Warhammer Fantasy world was. Is that in reference to AoS though? A good chunk of the range is based off his concept art. As for fantasy the chaos lore was cool but Bretonnia was a direct ripoff of Arthurian legend. Some of the stories in the first army book were beat for beat copies of stories from Morte D'Arthur. There a lot of nostalgia at play in these discussions, I think 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomikron Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 1 minute ago, Beliman said: That's wrong. I love Blanche (and now he is working for Trench Crusade), but I know from first hand that's not the case. There is a big diference between "the scope of our miniatures has been amplified" than "they care less and less for historical reference". First hand because you worked with GW or first hand from Blanche? The interview i am referring to was from FilmDregMiniatures on YouTube, I can’t seem to find the exact interview but I highly recommend everyone check out his videos. Really insightful looks into the design and business of early GW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomikron Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 2 minutes ago, Chikout said: Is that in reference to AoS though? A good chunk of the range is based off his concept art. As for fantasy the chaos lore was cool but Bretonnia was a direct ripoff of Arthurian legend. Some of the stories in the first army book were beat for beat copies of stories from Morte D'Arthur. There a lot of nostalgia at play in these discussions, I think I don’t think it’s nostalgia as much as its preference. How is Bretonnia being clearly based on Arthurian legend a bad thing? There’s a strange fascination with everything being 100% original for it to be quality. Everything of the last 150 years is derivative of something else. Absolutely everything. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draznak Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 34 minutes ago, Vomikron said: John Blanche recently gave an interview where he said that in his last years he found that miniature designers cared less and less for historical reference and looked to video games and movies for inspiration. I think this has a massive impact. Almost 10 years ago, I opened a thread on my French forum about the quality collapse in GW illustrations (just after the launch of AoS, culminating with the dreaful Dark Angels 7th codex). A professional illustrator told me that the reason why guys like A. Smith, Dainton, Gallagher, etc had such high impact work was that in order to draw convincing and credible space marine/chaos warrior armour, you need to know how real armour works. They did have a solid historical background. And at that time, around 2015, GW had started to hire freelancers, particularly Asian freelancers, who were well-versed in video games, manga and so on. Fortunately, GW has turned things around (even if the departure of the last big names like Dainton and Blanche gives us cause to fear for future). I hope this will be the case with lore, but I'm rather pessimistic. 25 minutes ago, Chikout said: Has anyone read the two awesome novels about the Van Densts? For that, GW/BL would have to be kind enough to translate AoS novels. Even the WarCo short stories they don't do anymore, whereas they used to with Malign Portents. About lore quality, i'm sorry but I find Dawnbringers very poor. A succession of events without much interest where characters arrive and leave just as quickly. For me, it's more a pile-up of events than interesting stakes that make me want to know more. But I agree that the WD lore articles are interesting. In fact, when it comes to background details, there's still some good stuff, but as soon as it's about developing the main scenario, they become lazy (like that sudden entry of the Skaven in Dawnbringers T6). I should point out that this is just my opinion, I fully understand that others think differently (and good for them !). 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Kim Woof-Woof Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 3 minutes ago, Vomikron said: I don’t think it’s nostalgia as much as its preference. How is Bretonnia being clearly based on Arthurian legend a bad thing? There’s a strange fascination with everything being 100% original for it to be quality. Everything of the last 150 years is derivative of something else. Absolutely everything. To be fair, you were saying only a few posts back how "insanely original" the Warhammer fantasy world was. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 22 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: While I agree, many of us don't read what you mentioned, it would be cool if that kind of piece of lore didn't come from "side products". Obviously, you cannot put as many details on a Battletome as in a novel, but when those products with nice little bits are not part of their core products (they don't have the same treatment in terms of translations, for example) you are reducing their exposure. So yes, IMO, GW is putting a bullet on their feet in comparison with how they did things in the past where even countries like Spain or France had their very own WD version with commemorative minis being 100% exclusive. They are doing also pretty nice things that they didn't before, but not all the community gets the same coverage in terms of accessibility to those efforts made by GW. Most of the lore from Warhammer fantasy that people are so fond of came from the side product that was the rpg. I will agree about the translation problem though. They should definitely put more effort into translating AoS novels. If the complaint is explicitly about translation then I recind my earlier comment. It is a serious issue that a global company like GW needs to put more resources into addressing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peacaf Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 (edited) How lazy this subforum makes me and its constant crying about WHF and how it was better than AoS. It's been 9 years get over it. WHF was ******. Horribly poorly designed and balanced edition after edition, 5 years to wait for rebalances that did not arrive. Not to forget a disastrous learning curve. And the lore, was something happening? If it happened, it was treated as a What If, because here, gentlemen, NOTHING happens. It had the same depth and complexity as Dragonlance, for a youth audience. Not to mention the cultural appropriation and racism of some of his first designs. The construction of the world and how its races interacted with it, loaded with clichés, inconsistencies and anachronisms. How was an Orc fleet going to reach Naggaroth? What could motivate Kislev to attack Khemri? Why would some Lizards locked in their jungle attack some Dwarves locked in their mountains? Why was Bretonnia Camelot and the peasants were starving? Why didn't those peasants emigrate to the Empire? So many "whys" that romanticism and time make us forget how inconsistent WHF was. AoS with its problems is like a thousand times more consistent than Warhammer fan content ever was. Edited June 11 by Gaz Taylor swearing!!! :( 7 1 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 (edited) 2 hours ago, Vomikron said: First hand because you worked with GW or first hand from Blanche? I don't work for GW, but I know that model's designers know and care about historical references. Edited June 9 by Beliman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon-knight77 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 1 hour ago, Chikout said: I find comments like this really frustrating. What did GW do before that they don't do now? They never used to do free stories on their website. Did any actually bother to read the white dwarf articles about the Siege of Everquake city? Has anyone read the two big rprg narrative campaigns about Anvilgard and Greywater Fastness and the awesome city guides? Has anyone read the two awesome novels about the Van Densts? There is a huge amount of great AoS content already. I guess that people forget that Warhammer fantasy didn't even have army books until 4th edition. AoS is way ahead of the curve when it comes to narrative content. Agree with you with everything ..........but the sige of Everquake city was massive meh to give the ork a W, the previous Battle royal in Rondhol was far more entertaining and hype Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vomikron said: Blanche was certainly speaking to designers going back to 7th and 8th edition WHFB. I’m not sure I agree with CoS being historically influenced other than the fact that they use a shield and wear a helmet that resembles a kettle helm. I think that's just due to your unfamiliarity with either CoS or their historical basis. The theme of CoS is that they are looking for safety wherever they can find it. To that end, on the battlefield, they try to bring their city walls with them. This is best exemplified by the Fusiliers and cannon: The pavises they carry are meant to resemble castle walls, hence the name "Catellite Formation". The cannon is the gate, the Fusiliers are the walls and the Warhulks are the towers. Here's an image from the battletome that illustrates the idea: To drive the idea home, the design of the new Cities forces is based on the Hussites, who are known for their wagon-fortresses which exemplify the same idea. Here's an illustration of what they looked like: You will no doubt be able to spot a number of similarities: The helmets, the hand-gonnes, the pavises, the collars... The historical inspirations don't end there, either. Cities also draws heavily from historical medieval art. The Gargoylians are a reference to marginalia, illustrations of fantastical creatures found in the margines of medieval books. I have also spotted a number of references to the vanitas paintings, which are basically a historical genre of painting centered around human mortality and the vanity of human ambition. Here's a direct reference, the Soul Shepard and his homunculus vs a medieval depiction of death: The most obvious reference to vanitas paintings is Pontifex Zenestra, however. Vanitas painting is a genre with very well-defined tropes. It is common for vanitas paintings to depict a tableau of items that each stand for a certain human endeavour that we are to be reminded is in vain: Scepters for political power, coins for wealth, hourglasses and skulls for youth etc. Take a look at Zenestra and see how many of those elements you can spot: There is a lot of historical inspiration in the Cities of Sigmar. I would even say more than in most other fantasy human cultures I am aware of. You just have to know where to look and actually engage with them rather than taking one glance at them and defaulting to "looks generic". Edited June 9 by Neil Arthur Hotep 23 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoJon Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 So prior to 1.5 edition of Age of Sigmar, my game of choice was Warmachine. I kept up with the fluff in Warmachine almost 100% because I would consider the lore of the game to be relatively narrow when compared to Age of Sigmar. You could be up to date with just reading the anthology books and their No Quarter magazine. Really Age of Sigmar has a lot of amazing lore but it is spread out amongst so many different formats that I feel that it is hard for the average player to be able to consume all of it and by virtue of that GW has made it so a lot of the lore outside of campaign books will not push the narrative forward in any regard. Which I think since it doesn't progress the story it leaves a lot of fans feeling like Black Library books/other mediums aren't worth the investment in time and that then perpetuates that there is not enough lore for AOS. I personally read as many AoS books as I possibly can, just started "Darkoath" today and am hoping for some juicy tidbits about the setting post Vermindoom. To get back to rumors or such. There's like no chance AOS 4 gets announced today right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Whateley Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 2 hours ago, Vomikron said: John Blanche recently gave an interview where he said that in his last years he found that miniature designers cared less and less for historical reference and looked to video games and movies for inspiration. Grashnak Blackhoof is literally a Tauren. I love him but GW's minotaur proportions have changed to match exactly those of WOW. So that's not limited at medieval armor at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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