The Rumour Thread

[Ejecutor]

1 minute ago, Xil said:

Great! Thanks for that. Really nice overview.

What about multiple Warcry/Underworld kits?

 

I think you missed the Branchwych for Sylvaneth.

It is not sold anymore on its own.

[Xil]

2 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

It is not sold anymore on its own.

Oh. weird one.

It is still its own kit though...?

Edited Wednesday at 12:30 PM by Xil

[Hollow]

1 minute ago, Ejecutor said:

It is not sold anymore on its own.

Yeah, Warcry/Underworlds were also weird regarding this. Fundamentally I tried to approach it from a "product code" perspective. Is there a product available to purchase? Rather than tie it to Battlescrolls, Legends, Rules etc. 

 

[Snarff]

28 minutes ago, Hollow said:

I love this kind of chat. (find it interesting) 

So much so that I became frustrated that GW lists multi-build kits as different listings on their site. It gives a skewed idea of how many actual, physical kits there are for each faction.

I put together this generic "faction support" template. 

The Faction Battletome/Index is on the left in the large rectangle. 20 slots for Hero/Character kits, 20 for unit kits and 5 further "support" boxes in Faction Terrain, Spells, Warcry, Underworlds and Spearhead representation. 

A red border shows a multi-build kit that can be made as either a "Unit" or as a "Hero" (I still count them as a singular kit though) The Yellow Border shows the kit has multiple Hero build options (but is again counted as a singular kit) and the blue border shows a Unit kit with multiple build options (counted as a single kit).

The red circle with a cross through it means that the kit is no longer available. This is how the 9 Factions across Grand Alliance Order currently stand in real, physical kits support. 

 

 

When factions are laid out in this way I find it highlights growing weaknesses (in terms of kit support) pretty well. I also think it shows that some factions are actually better supported than some people think, and others are much better supported than something.

Sorry for the insanely long post. Currently putting "lists" for Death, Destruction and Chaos and will make a new thread to discuss. 

I do think (and hope) that 4th will see more "more than just a hero" releases to plug the gaps in faction ranges and try and bring them more in line with each other. 

Great way to visualize things! I have a few comments/questions though:

 

-The heroes only available through spearheads are not listed in the heroes slot (even if they used to be separately available before), but I guess that's intentional. Some armies do look worse hero-wise than they actually are due to this though.

-DoK have 3 underworlds Warbands (though the chart has no great way to show that). Same thing goes for other factions as well ( Idoneth has 2, CoS has 2, SCE for example has like 5).

-Models from for example Cursed City are not in there, but understandable since they have no rules

-Gotrek is listed as a FS, but has no FS-specific rules. I know he's in the store, but it kind of makes the FS situation looks better than it is. Otherwise he could be included in every army's hero slots here.

-Magmadroth only builds heroes and should not be under units.

-DOK section is titled FS (I know, hard to separate the 2 factions who are brave enough not to need armor)

-Hunters of Huanchi are actually a triple kit

-Seraphon is in there twice.

 

 

It does show how some factions are getting less attention than others even without taking these points into account.

Edited Wednesday at 12:45 PM by Snarff

[TrawlingCleaner]

10 minutes ago, Hollow said:

I love this kind of chat. (find it interesting) 

So much so that I became frustrated that GW lists multi-build kits as different listings on their site. It gives a skewed idea of how many actual, physical kits there are for each faction.

I put together this generic "faction support" template. 

The Faction Battletome/Index is on the left in the large rectangle. 20 slots for Hero/Character kits, 20 for unit kits and 5 further "support" boxes in Faction Terrain, Spells, Warcry, Underworlds and Spearhead representation. 

A red border shows a multi-build kit that can be made as either a "Unit" or as a "Hero" (I still count them as a singular kit though) The Yellow Border shows the kit has multiple Hero build options (but is again counted as a singular kit) and the blue border shows a Unit kit with multiple build options (counted as a single kit).

The red circle with a cross through it means that the kit is no longer available. This is how the 9 Factions across Grand Alliance Order currently stand in real, physical kits support. 

 

 

 

When factions are laid out in this way I find it highlights growing weaknesses (in terms of kit support) pretty well. I also think it shows that some factions are actually better supported than some people think, and others are not as supported than they might believe. 

Sorry for the insanely long post. Currently putting "lists" for Death, Destruction and Chaos and will make a new thread to discuss. 

I do think (and hope) that 4th will see more "more than just a hero" releases to plug the gaps in faction ranges and try and bring them more in line with each other.

 

Very interesting and great work for putting this all together!

Some armies definitely suffer more from GW's mindset at the tailend of Fantasy/7th ed 40k/start of AoS where new kits had to make multiple units rather than units just being a solo thing. Fyreslayers, Sisters of Slaughter, early Sylvaneth units even into 40k's Harlequins and Custodes. Seems ideal in concept for GW as they produce more of one box but at times just ends up with the core of the army looking the same. Like comparing Witch Aelves and Sisters of Slaughter as the main core of the army vs Namarti Thralls and Reavers, Auralan Wardens and Sentinels etc

[Ejecutor]

3 minutes ago, Hollow said:

Yeah, Warcry/Underworlds were also weird regarding this. Fundamentally I tried to approach it from a "product code" perspective. Is there a product available to purchase? Rather than tie it to Battlescrolls, Legends, Rules etc. 

 

Yeah. When I did the kits count Excel I approached it in the same way, but added stuff like the Branch Witch that is kidpanned inside the Spearhead.

[Matrindur]

5 minutes ago, Hollow said:

Yeah, Warcry/Underworlds were also weird regarding this. Fundamentally I tried to approach it from a "product code" perspective. Is there a product available to purchase? Rather than tie it to Battlescrolls, Legends, Rules etc. 

 

Eh that cuts out quite a few characters that are locked to Vanguards/Spearheads currently.

You can make an argument wether or nor dual kits should be counted as one or two but I think kits that are locked in a bundle should be counted as an existing kit for sure as you can still buy them, just not on their own

Edited Wednesday at 12:40 PM by Matrindur

[PraetorDragoon]

23 minutes ago, Hollow said:

I love this kind of chat. (find it interesting) 

So much so that I became frustrated that GW lists multi-build kits as different listings on their site. It gives a skewed idea of how many actual, physical kits there are for each faction.

I put together this generic "faction support" template. 

The Faction Battletome/Index is on the left in the large rectangle. 20 slots for Hero/Character kits, 20 for unit kits and 5 further "support" boxes in Faction Terrain, Spells, Warcry, Underworlds and Spearhead representation. 

A red border shows a multi-build kit that can be made as either a "Unit" or as a "Hero" (I still count them as a singular kit though) The Yellow Border shows the kit has multiple Hero build options (but is again counted as a singular kit) and the blue border shows a Unit kit with multiple build options (counted as a single kit).

The red circle with a cross through it means that the kit is no longer available. This is how the 9 Factions across Grand Alliance Order currently stand in real, physical kits support. 

 

 

 

When factions are laid out in this way I find it highlights growing weaknesses (in terms of kit support) pretty well. I also think it shows that some factions are actually better supported than some people think, and others are not as supported than they might believe. 

Sorry for the insanely long post. Currently putting "lists" for Death, Destruction and Chaos and will make a new thread to discuss. 

I do think (and hope) that 4th will see more "more than just a hero" releases to plug the gaps in faction ranges and try and bring them more in line with each other.

That is a nice overview.

Point of note, the Fyreslayer Magmadroth kit lets you only build heroes. So probably should need the yellow border.

[Snarff]

1 minute ago, PraetorDragoon said:

That is a nice overview.

Point of note, the Fyreslayer Magmadroth kit lets you only build heroes. So probably should need the yellow border.

Yeah, that alongside Gotrek being in the list (which has rules for all order factions and no FS specific rules) makes the situation for FS look better than it is. Though the Battlesmith could definitely be in the heroes as well since it's locked to the vanguard even though it is a separate kit.

[Hollow]

Thanks for all the comments. Currently working on Death and when I create a thread with all factions will edit so any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated. 

Again, kinda went for a barebones "is there a product code" approach to kits, because that is what real support is, let's face it.  So don't think I'm going to include heroes from Spearheads or other products unless they are listed individually for sale. 

[PraetorDragoon]

Just now, Hollow said:

Thanks for all the comments. Currently working on Death and when I create a thread with all factions will edit so any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated. 

Again, kinda went for a barebones "is there a product code" approach to kits, because that is what real support is, let's face it.  So don't think I'm going to include heroes from Spearheads or other products unless they are listed individually for sale. 

Focussing on products available from GW is a fair call. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 minutes ago, Hollow said:

Thanks for all the comments. Currently working on Death and when I create a thread with all factions will edit so any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated. 

Again, kinda went for a barebones "is there a product code" approach to kits, because that is what real support is, let's face it.  So don't think I'm going to include heroes from Spearheads or other products unless they are listed individually for sale. 

Super helpful stuff, looking foreward to the thread.

I think you missed the Greatcannon for Cities of Sigmar.

[Asbestress]

41 minutes ago, Hollow said:

I love this kind of chat. (find it interesting) 

So much so that I became frustrated that GW lists multi-build kits as different listings on their site. It gives a skewed idea of how many actual, physical kits there are for each faction.

I put together this generic "faction support" template. 

The Faction Battletome/Index is on the left in the large rectangle. 20 slots for Hero/Character kits, 20 for unit kits and 5 further "support" boxes in Faction Terrain, Spells, Warcry, Underworlds and Spearhead representation. 

A red border shows a multi-build kit that can be made as either a "Unit" or as a "Hero" (I still count them as a singular kit though) The Yellow Border shows the kit has multiple Hero build options (but is again counted as a singular kit) and the blue border shows a Unit kit with multiple build options (counted as a single kit).

The red circle with a cross through it means that the kit is no longer available. This is how the 9 Factions across Grand Alliance Order currently stand in real, physical kits support. 

 

 

When factions are laid out in this way I find it highlights growing weaknesses (in terms of kit support) pretty well. I also think it shows that some factions are actually better supported than some people think, and others are not as supported than they might believe. 

Sorry for the insanely long post. Currently putting "lists" for Death, Destruction and Chaos and will make a new thread to discuss. 

I do think (and hope) that 4th will see more "more than just a hero" releases to plug the gaps in faction ranges and try and bring them more in line with each other.

WOW, amazing visualisation!

And I'm only realising now how much Fantasy stuff is still left in Cities

Spoiler

[Ejecutor]

3 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Super helpful stuff, looking foreward to the thread.

I think you missed the Greatcannon for Cities of Sigmar.

It is not missing. It is being updated to have a duardin crew.

[Vagard]

2 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

What do you mean by Leviathan terrains? The Leviathan box didn't have scenery. Do you mean the start here boxes? If so, the answer is yes: Battlezone: Fronteris – STC Hab-Bunker and Stockades (warhammer.com), but looking at it being called Battlezone: Fronteris I would say it is old terrain.

I mean that IIRC, each new version means also new terrain, we get the thondia strongpoint for V3 (aqualithe, monster squeletton, statues and buildings in construction), sigmarite temples for V2 (round temple, square one and gryph hounds statues egyptians-like) and azyrite ruins during V1 (blasted hallowheart box)

So I hope for new terrains during this summer as well (The best bet will be CoS ruins like the ones we have in the starting box) But I don't find when they have been released during the previous versions

[Snarff]

2 minutes ago, Hollow said:

Thanks for all the comments. Currently working on Death and when I create a thread with all factions will edit so any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated. 

Again, kinda went for a barebones "is there a product code" approach to kits, because that is what real support is, let's face it.  So don't think I'm going to include heroes from Spearheads or other products unless they are listed individually for sale. 

That's fair you have to draw the line somewhere and available products definitely is a good place to draw it. I also like the approach of keeping multi-build kits in a single listing (while still clearly denoting that they are multi-build) since they usually look quite similar. Separating non-mainline AoS also seems like a good idea, though the lines between Warcry and AoS are getting more and more blurred.

 

[Ejecutor]

1 minute ago, Vagard said:

I mean that IIRC, each new version means also new terrain, we get the thondia strongpoint for V3 (aqualithe, monster squeletton, statues and buildings in construction), sigmarite temples for V2 (round temple, square one and gryph hounds statues egyptians-like) and azyrite ruins during V1 (blasted hallowheart box)

So I hope for new terrains during this summer as well (The best bet will be CoS ruins like the ones we have in the starting box) But I don't find when they have been released during the previous versions

I could be wrong, but I think the WIP houses terrain as kidnapped in the start here boxes until they released Thondia.

[Snarff]

22 minutes ago, Asbestress said:

WOW, amazing visualisation!

And I'm only realising now how much Fantasy stuff is still left in Cities

  Hide contents

And even without the fantasy kits it's still quite a good range compared to most other Order armies! It's in a much better state than FS/DoK, similar to IDK/Sylvaneth/KO and only slightly worse than LRL, SCE and Seraphon. And that's not even counting for the fact that DoK, Sylvaneth and Seraphon also have fantasy plastic in there.

But since CoS actually does still have the WFB plastics, it's even more varied. 1 UW warband is not even listed for CoS here while it is currently available.

It's also very balanced. Cavalry, melee and ranged infantry, elite squad, centrepiece behemoth, centrepiece non-behemoth, wizard, infantry, ranged and cavalry hero. Many armies can only dream of that. Could there be more? Yes. Are other armies in much worse shape (especially when you also remove the WFB models from them)? Definite yes.

Edited Wednesday at 01:23 PM by Snarff
More context

[Vagard]

5 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

I could be wrong, but I think the WIP houses terrain as kidnapped in the start here boxes until they released Thondia

And was it long after the V3 release? I don't remember 

EDIT : i found the date of april 22 for the big box thondian strongpoint, so more or less 10 month after release but don't know if there was some standalone boxes before this one. (realm expansion set and other buildings)

Edited Wednesday at 01:14 PM by Vagard

[Snarff]

21 minutes ago, Hollow said:

Thanks for all the comments. Currently working on Death and when I create a thread with all factions will edit so any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated. 

Again, kinda went for a barebones "is there a product code" approach to kits, because that is what real support is, let's face it.  So don't think I'm going to include heroes from Spearheads or other products unless they are listed individually for sale. 

One more addition: Endrinriggers/Skywardens are a dual kit

[Ejecutor]

3 minutes ago, Vagard said:

And was it long after the V3 release? I don't remember 

Saturday Pre-orders – Tyranids, Thondia, and Classic Made to Order Miniatures - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

Seems that 1 year.

[Vagard]

1 hour ago, Ejecutor said:

Saturday Pre-orders – Tyranids, Thondia, and Classic Made to Order Miniatures - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

Seems that 1 year.

found that as well, i've edited my post, but there are also other smaller kits available like the nexus syphon, the realm expansion set or the aqalith standalone and I don't find their release date

EDIT : after further research, i've found a post date from oct 21 for the nexus syphon, so maybe by the end of the year we will get new terrains

Edited Wednesday at 02:23 PM by Vagard

[Periophtalmus]

1 hour ago, Hollow said:

I love this kind of chat. (find it interesting) 

So much so that I became frustrated that GW lists multi-build kits as different listings on their site. It gives a skewed idea of how many actual, physical kits there are for each faction.

I put together this generic "faction support" template. 

The Faction Battletome/Index is on the left in the large rectangle. 20 slots for Hero/Character kits, 20 for unit kits and 5 further "support" boxes in Faction Terrain, Spells, Warcry, Underworlds and Spearhead representation. 

A red border shows a multi-build kit that can be made as either a "Unit" or as a "Hero" (I still count them as a singular kit though) The Yellow Border shows the kit has multiple Hero build options (but is again counted as a singular kit) and the blue border shows a Unit kit with multiple build options (counted as a single kit).

The red circle with a cross through it means that the kit is no longer available. This is how the 9 Factions across Grand Alliance Order currently stand in real, physical kits support. 

 

 

When factions are laid out in this way I find it highlights growing weaknesses (in terms of kit support) pretty well. I also think it shows that some factions are actually better supported than some people think, and others are not as supported than they might believe. 

Sorry for the insanely long post. Currently putting "lists" for Death, Destruction and Chaos and will make a new thread to discuss. 

I do think (and hope) that 4th will see more "more than just a hero" releases to plug the gaps in faction ranges and try and bring them more in line with each other.

Great idea, it gives a nice overview of the factions !

I think you forgot some colored borders : the Stardrake, Vanguard-Raptors, Annihilators, Marshal on Griffon, Black Dragon, Heliobolis, Kharibdyss, Drakespawn Chariot, Dreadspears, Black Guard, Longbeards, Irondrakes, Gyrobomber, Vulkite Berzerkers, Skywardens, Witch Aelves, Melusai, Khinerai, Treelord and Kurnoth Hunters all have multiple build options.

The Vanari Lord-Regent and Lyrior Uthralle are actually the same kit. Same for the Akhelian King and Volturnos.

The Dark Riders and Doomfire Warlocks are a kit shared across 2 factions so I don’t really know how you could indicate that.

Unless I am mistaken, you also forgot to count the skinks for the Seraphon and the Vanguard-Hunters for SCE.

But that’s a very good chart overall !

Edited Wednesday at 01:42 PM by Periophtalmus

[Snarff]

6 minutes ago, Periophtalmus said:

Great idea, it gives a nice overview of the factions !

I think you forgot some colored borders : the Stardrake, Vanguard-Raptors, Annihilators, Black Dragon, Heliobolis, Kharibdyss, Drakespawn Chariot, Dreadspears, Black Guard, Longbeards, Irondrakes, Gyrobomber, Vulkite Berzerkers, Skywardens, Witch Aelves, Melusai, Khinerai, Treelord and Kurnoth Hunters all have multiple build options.

The Vanari Lord-Regent and Lyrior Uthralle are actually the same kit. Same for the Akhelian King and Volturnos.

The Dark Riders and Doomfire Warlocks are a kit shared across 2 factions so I don’t really know how you could indicate that.

Unless I am mistaken, you also forgot to count the skinks for the Seraphon.

But that’s a very good chart overall !

Small correction on this: Vulkite berserkers are NOT multi-build, they just have another weapon option.

But the rest is a good call.

[Periophtalmus]

12 minutes ago, Snarff said:

Small correction on this: Vulkite berserkers are NOT multi-build, they just have another weapon option.

But the rest is a good call.

If it is a different warscroll, shouldn’t it be counted as a different build (just asking, I am not sure and weapon options seem to be fused together in 4e anyway) ?