The Rumour Thread

[KingBrodd]

17 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

My thoughts on ogors are either one subfaction will get redone or an entirely new one will pop up like Kruleboyz for orruks. Either way I do hope the CoS warhulk is the scale template. I don't think any new ogor model should be on anything less than a 50mm. 

50mm as the smallest base size in the faction is a must. We need the minis to represent the lore. A Fyreslayers crest shouldnt reach an Ogors head.

16 hours ago, Dragon-knight77 said:

I respectfully highly disagree

"Ogres lack an AOS identity"

AOS has two identities right now; the Ice Age horde and the classic Black powder Cossack–Mongols 

Both being use in lore to their fullest AOS potential

• the Beastclaw raider are massive horde riding massive Neolithic beasts chased by blizzards that can change depending on the tribe from a hailstorm the fist of ogre fist or a thick fog allowing litteral ogre ninja 
• The Gutbusters are just various Khantes of eternally carnivores horde worship the destruction of the realm by forming mini-great maw some devouring entire cities (Warcy show this) while sending out mercenaries to eat the most exotic foods and cultures are center around the preference of what they eat like a blood raw meat tribe

Then they're just the various sort of thing they spread out to other factions like the City ogres who taken a more retro ogre look to them

"but there are no named characters, and no true cause and effect with them in the mortal realms. "

Yes there is there Globb Glittermaw who been spending the entirety of 3 edition in the background building his power within the Destruction sphere  across various battletomes

It build up and the pay off will come when the do get their refresh because let be honest we hear this time and time again from the Flesh eater court to Seraphon to the Skaven and they got their time in the sun. The reason why BoC didn't get that is the big obvious reason that one image explain

 

Excellent write up here mate couldnt have said it better myself!! I cannot wait to see the resulting action from all the Mawpaths. Especially if we get a Globb Glittermaw model as everyone knows, he wrestles Gargants for fun!!

10 hours ago, Sahrial said:

I think we’re debating what is or isn’t AoS- enough when we could be celebrating how friggin rad Ogors are and be super psyched at the idea of a future range and lore expansion

 

ABSOLUTELY MAAAAAAW!!

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Snarff said:

*snip*

The 'darkest' new stormcast lore is that some stormcast voluntarily get euthanized (in a touching ceremony - awwwww) once they no longer want to battle or they feel their minds are broken.

Is the lore a little darker now that chaos has struck a big blow? Yes. Is it anywhere near Grimdark? No, and AoS has never been. It has always been and still is about hope at its core.

That is grimdark. But hey, call it whatever floats your boat. Grimdark isn't bad. It's part of AoS's DNA as well, just less so than 40k or WHFB. And grimdarkness isn't just hopelessness - it's violent, at times disturbing, it's bleak. At times AoS dishes it out in large quantities and that is good. 

And it's wonderful you Order goody two-shoes have so much hope, the Association of Random Change thanks you. ❤️

Edited August 4 by MitGas
snipped some of the quote

[Dragon-knight77]

Assuming tomorrow they going to announce the preview show (maybe show off a model?) 

Valark said in the stream he wouldn't be surprised if Monday reveal they show off Sanguinor and the wingless Sanguinary guard  in another monday article 

[Vasshpit]

@Bosskelot I think I understand where you're coming from on this. 

It's the difference between ironjawz and Kruleboyz. Like, I don't think we'll ever see the goofiness that is something along the lines of the gore gruntas mouth design if that makes sense. 

I'm with you and do see the design shift in things. 

I think this may very well be why IDK haven't recieved much as they may have taken a bit of time to adjust their design to follow this new trend. 

[Snarff]

5 minutes ago, MitGas said:

That is grimdark. But hey, call it whatever floats your boat. Grimdark isn't bad. It's part of AoS's DNA as well, just less so than 40k or WHFB. And grimdarkness isn't just hopelessness - it's violent, at times disturbing, it's bleak. At times AoS dishes it out in large quantities and that is good. 

And it's wonderful you Order goody two-shoes have so much hope, the Association of Random Change thanks you. ❤️

I'd disagree. I think it's actually hopeful. There is no forced fighting until the end, Stormcast can take a honourable way out surrounded by their loved ones. Euthanasia isn't necessarily a dark thing at all, it's a voluntary end to suffering when there's no other way out. Just look at how it's described:

In a sombre ceremony known as the Crossing of the Last Threshold, the warrior’s many lives and battle honours are recounted by chanting Memorian squires in recognition of their proud service to the God-King. Prayers are recited and solemn goodbyes exchanged between old comrades. Then, as the supplicant lays their head gratefully upon a stone block, the Lord-Terminos raises their axe and brings it down with a swift, sure stroke. For the last time, the Stormcast warrior reconnects with their mortality, for this is a final death, and there is nothing but mystery on the other side.

Only Sigmar knows what happens to the souls of those released from their torment in this way. Many amongst the Ruination chambers believe that Morrda greets them, ushering their tired spirits into merciful oblivion. Certain Stormhosts have different ideas: some believe that they are reincarnated as Azyrite beasts, others that they merge with the radiant essence of the God-King himself. All that is certain is that none who have crossed the Last Threshold have ever returned to Azyr to be Reforged anew.

That's not Grimdark, that's actually touching and a much better end for Stormcast than being trapped in the Cursed Skies, reduced to a Lightning Gheist or obliterated in the Starbridge.

Grimdark would be forcing the Stormcast to keep fighting until completely broken, then forcing their broken spirits into a golem to fight even more (hmm, wonder where I heard that before).

I'd argue that Noblebright is baked into AoS's DNA rather than Grimdark. It's a post-apocalyptic setting focused on rebuilding, cooperation and thriving in spite of setbacks. Corruption is able to be purified instead of purged. The different races work together to become greater than the sum of their parts. Especially since first edition, many factions are more and more willing to work with one another. There are some darker moments, but even with the Vermindoom the overall theme is hope.

So far the lore in 4th is that while the Vermindoom is destructive, the Ruination chambers are voluntarily marching forth to fight alongside and save the mortals in the CoS, even though it might be their last time to die, which is incredibly heroic. FS and KO are helping the Cities evacuate and reclaiming important strongholds. Aelves are busy purifying corruption everywhere. CoS are reclaiming and rebuilding strongholds.

There are setbacks and losses, but the overall theme remains hopeful, and almost every story focuses on the good of both mortals and gods in the face of darkness.

[Vasshpit]

Eh, stormies are just a form of angelic necromancy. 😜

[Asbestress]

23 minutes ago, Snarff said:

I'd disagree. I think it's actually hopeful. There is no forced fighting until the end, Stormcast can take a honourable way out surrounded by their loved ones. Euthanasia isn't necessarily a dark thing at all, it's a voluntary end to suffering when there's no other way out. Just look at how it's described:

In a sombre ceremony known as the Crossing of the Last Threshold, the warrior’s many lives and battle honours are recounted by chanting Memorian squires in recognition of their proud service to the God-King. Prayers are recited and solemn goodbyes exchanged between old comrades. Then, as the supplicant lays their head gratefully upon a stone block, the Lord-Terminos raises their axe and brings it down with a swift, sure stroke. For the last time, the Stormcast warrior reconnects with their mortality, for this is a final death, and there is nothing but mystery on the other side.

Only Sigmar knows what happens to the souls of those released from their torment in this way. Many amongst the Ruination chambers believe that Morrda greets them, ushering their tired spirits into merciful oblivion. Certain Stormhosts have different ideas: some believe that they are reincarnated as Azyrite beasts, others that they merge with the radiant essence of the God-King himself. All that is certain is that none who have crossed the Last Threshold have ever returned to Azyr to be Reforged anew.

That's not Grimdark, that's actually touching and a much better end for Stormcast than being trapped in the Cursed Skies, reduced to a Lightning Gheist or obliterated in the Starbridge.

Grimdark would be forcing the Stormcast to keep fighting until completely broken, then forcing their broken spirits into a golem to fight even more (hmm, wonder where I heard that before).

I'd argue that Noblebright is baked into AoS's DNA rather than Grimdark. It's a post-apocalyptic setting focused on rebuilding, cooperation and thriving in spite of setbacks. Corruption is able to be purified instead of purged. The different races work together to become greater than the sum of their parts. Especially since first edition, many factions are more and more willing to work with one another. There are some darker moments, but even with the Vermindoom the overall theme is hope.

So far the lore in 4th is that while the Vermindoom is destructive, the Ruination chambers are voluntarily marching forth to fight alongside and save the mortals in the CoS, even though it might be their last time to die, which is incredibly heroic. FS and KO are helping the Cities evacuate and reclaiming important strongholds. Aelves are busy purifying corruption everywhere. CoS are reclaiming and rebuilding strongholds.

There are setbacks and losses, but the overall theme remains hopeful, and almost every story focuses on the good of both mortals and gods in the face of darkness.

Yes. SO MUCH YES.

[TheDayman]

5 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

Eh, stormies are just a form of angelic necromancy. 😜

Man Nagash must be livid that Sigmar is a better necromancer than him, Skelepope can't stop catching L's

[Ejecutor]

On 8/4/2024 at 1:04 PM, Snarff said:

Extremely hard disagree. I think AoS still has a very distinct identity, which a lot of WFB players seem to dislike.

Examples from the recent years include: Lumineth having the Aelementiri and gigantic cow/kangaroo elemental spirits and helmets. FeC and the court, which have models wearing intestines as a wig, and models like Ushoran which have not got any precedent in WFB. In addition to models like the offal hounds. Cities of Sigmar explicitly moving away from the single-period historical influence. Kruleboyz include a lot more fantastical creatures than you'd see in orcs and goblins. Sylvaneth and Nighthaunt are still getting releases which fit their Aesthetic. I don't think there are any bug riding wood sprites in the old world.

SCE have got an armor redesign, but in no way are they Grimdark. Dragon riding Stormcast and both Krondys and Kharazai were introduced very recently, and they are very much in line with the AoS wackiness. The 4th edition models are mostly updates to the new armor style, which is in no way more WFB than the original SCE.

I do agree that the Seraphon, Skaven and StD reworks are tame. That's mostly because they were literally WFB factions shoved into AoS. You can still see the evolution in Seraphon weaponry, the introduction of Gnawholes and making Skaven a ton more powerful. For StD you have the Warcry bands which are very different from anything that was part of Warriors of Chaos and models like Abraxia and Belakor which are also on a much larger scale than anything in WFB.

The AoS-original factions have just not existed for long enough to warrant complete overhauls. Fyreslayers are keeping their original AoS wackiness if the Warcry band is anything to go by.

And yet if you visit any Fantasy or TOW forum they're largely negative on any new AoS release because it's 'not grounded enough' or 'too over the top'. I think you've just become used to the AoS Aesthetic. Making the setting a little darker and some designs a little darker does not mean AoS has no identity, or that it's suddenly WFB. WFB also had a lot of outright silly sculpts and lore.

Source on them being the most popular AoS models? I don't think either of us has access to those numbers. Tournament statistics and reddit polls are really not representative either. This just feels like your opinion mixed with anecdotal evidence.

 

It could not be tied 100% to the minis, but the paper content is darker indeed. Even this edition start here box artwork, which resembles the first edition one, is still darker.

Edited August 5 by Ejecutor

[Ejecutor]

1 hour ago, Snarff said:

I'd disagree. I think it's actually hopeful. There is no forced fighting until the end, Stormcast can take a honourable way out surrounded by their loved ones. Euthanasia isn't necessarily a dark thing at all, it's a voluntary end to suffering when there's no other way out. Just look at how it's described:

In a sombre ceremony known as the Crossing of the Last Threshold, the warrior’s many lives and battle honours are recounted by chanting Memorian squires in recognition of their proud service to the God-King. Prayers are recited and solemn goodbyes exchanged between old comrades. Then, as the supplicant lays their head gratefully upon a stone block, the Lord-Terminos raises their axe and brings it down with a swift, sure stroke. For the last time, the Stormcast warrior reconnects with their mortality, for this is a final death, and there is nothing but mystery on the other side.

Only Sigmar knows what happens to the souls of those released from their torment in this way. Many amongst the Ruination chambers believe that Morrda greets them, ushering their tired spirits into merciful oblivion. Certain Stormhosts have different ideas: some believe that they are reincarnated as Azyrite beasts, others that they merge with the radiant essence of the God-King himself. All that is certain is that none who have crossed the Last Threshold have ever returned to Azyr to be Reforged anew.

That's not Grimdark, that's actually touching and a much better end for Stormcast than being trapped in the Cursed Skies, reduced to a Lightning Gheist or obliterated in the Starbridge.

Grimdark would be forcing the Stormcast to keep fighting until completely broken, then forcing their broken spirits into a golem to fight even more (hmm, wonder where I heard that before).

I'd argue that Noblebright is baked into AoS's DNA rather than Grimdark. It's a post-apocalyptic setting focused on rebuilding, cooperation and thriving in spite of setbacks. Corruption is able to be purified instead of purged. The different races work together to become greater than the sum of their parts. Especially since first edition, many factions are more and more willing to work with one another. There are some darker moments, but even with the Vermindoom the overall theme is hope.

So far the lore in 4th is that while the Vermindoom is destructive, the Ruination chambers are voluntarily marching forth to fight alongside and save the mortals in the CoS, even though it might be their last time to die, which is incredibly heroic. FS and KO are helping the Cities evacuate and reclaiming important strongholds. Aelves are busy purifying corruption everywhere. CoS are reclaiming and rebuilding strongholds.

There are setbacks and losses, but the overall theme remains hopeful, and almost every story focuses on the good of both mortals and gods in the face of darkness.

There is no hope...

[Bosskelot]

1 hour ago, Vasshpit said:

@Bosskelot I think I understand where you're coming from on this. 

It's the difference between ironjawz and Kruleboyz. Like, I don't think we'll ever see the goofiness that is something along the lines of the gore gruntas mouth design if that makes sense. 

I'm with you and do see the design shift in things. 

I think this may very well be why IDK haven't recieved much as they may have taken a bit of time to adjust their design to follow this new trend. 

Yeah like people also forget that Warhammer as a whole has had an element of dark comedy running throughout it too. Someone posted Goremayne earlier as an example of being this distinctly AOS thing and I completely disagree. Outside of the name, he and everything in the FEC refresh, could easily be a Strigoi army in WHFB. FEC, Soulblight, Seraphon, StD and now Skaven are just 1:1 updates or expansions on stuff that was already in WHFB. Nothing about any of them would look out of place in the old setting. Even a new faction like Kruleboyz wouldn't look out of place, and I've certainly seen enough Chorf players using hobgrots and gutrippaz as Hobgoblins. There's also really nothing about Hedonites that really pushes them outside of the realms of WHFB either. Going further back even the whackiness of GSG fits in perfectly fine because Night Goblins were always whacky.

The only recent AOS release that truly would struggle to fit would be Lumineth. The new SCE wouldn't exactly fit either but as I mentioned before they've had a very obvious aesthetic shift going on for 3 years now that's more based in Warhammer's roots and vibes and less in Diablo 3/Immortal.

And I don't say any of this as a negative thing either. Dark Fantasy is popular and Dark Fantasy is what Warhammer fundamentally is. There's also no need to throw out perfectly good and serviceable ideas that are also mega popular. If they'd gone Ossiarch-levels of "I'm not like the other girls" with Soulblight they 100% wouldn't have landed. Turns out people like gothic undead horror of shambling zombies and skeletons and vampires and vampire bats. It's been a popular thing for like 120 years. These things become tropes and stereotypes because they work and resonate with people. GW finally got the memo a few years ago and realized they should be leaning into it.

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Snarff said:

I'd disagree. I think it's actually hopeful. There is no forced fighting until the end, Stormcast can take a honourable way out surrounded by their loved ones. Euthanasia isn't necessarily a dark thing at all, it's a voluntary end to suffering when there's no other way out. Just look at how it's described:

In a sombre ceremony known as the Crossing of the Last Threshold, the warrior’s many lives and battle honours are recounted by chanting Memorian squires in recognition of their proud service to the God-King. Prayers are recited and solemn goodbyes exchanged between old comrades. Then, as the supplicant lays their head gratefully upon a stone block, the Lord-Terminos raises their axe and brings it down with a swift, sure stroke. For the last time, the Stormcast warrior reconnects with their mortality, for this is a final death, and there is nothing but mystery on the other side.

Only Sigmar knows what happens to the souls of those released from their torment in this way. Many amongst the Ruination chambers believe that Morrda greets them, ushering their tired spirits into merciful oblivion. Certain Stormhosts have different ideas: some believe that they are reincarnated as Azyrite beasts, others that they merge with the radiant essence of the God-King himself. All that is certain is that none who have crossed the Last Threshold have ever returned to Azyr to be Reforged anew.

That's not Grimdark, that's actually touching and a much better end for Stormcast than being trapped in the Cursed Skies, reduced to a Lightning Gheist or obliterated in the Starbridge.

Grimdark would be forcing the Stormcast to keep fighting until completely broken, then forcing their broken spirits into a golem to fight even more (hmm, wonder where I heard that before).

I'd argue that Noblebright is baked into AoS's DNA rather than Grimdark. It's a post-apocalyptic setting focused on rebuilding, cooperation and thriving in spite of setbacks. Corruption is able to be purified instead of purged. The different races work together to become greater than the sum of their parts. Especially since first edition, many factions are more and more willing to work with one another. There are some darker moments, but even with the Vermindoom the overall theme is hope.

So far the lore in 4th is that while the Vermindoom is destructive, the Ruination chambers are voluntarily marching forth to fight alongside and save the mortals in the CoS, even though it might be their last time to die, which is incredibly heroic. FS and KO are helping the Cities evacuate and reclaiming important strongholds. Aelves are busy purifying corruption everywhere. CoS are reclaiming and rebuilding strongholds.

There are setbacks and losses, but the overall theme remains hopeful, and almost every story focuses on the good of both mortals and gods in the face of darkness.

That's a nice reply for sure, thanks for providing the lore!

Noblebright kinda has grimdark cursing through its veins too, tho, IMO, I see a lot of similar markers, with only the general mood of the good guys and society being better. I dunno, stuff I read, one of the best examples that springs to mind is the short story about the Nurgle herald, were as grimdark as Warhammer Fantasy ever was. That was on Praag levels. I just think it's doing a disservice to Warhammer's grimdarkness to poo-poo on it. Even in a grimdark setting there can be selfless acts of heroism and hope and outside of a rotten society there are many parallels between noblebright and grimdark. I dunno if bright is the adjective suited for AoS. I think it's steering itself into a mix out of those two terms and I'm here for it.

I dunno, being forced to fight over and over until your mind, your very being, wastes away... sounds really nice, totally not dark. Totally not like you were a random guy thrown into Lovecraftian circumstances. A "sombre" ceremony, where you can't even recall yourself what you did and who you are... saying goodbye to people you don't even really know. I think that's kinda horrific. Maybe nobledark fits better? 

But you guys keep hoping, much appreciated. And the futility of your misbegotten heroics will hit even harder when it's all over once again. It's the nature of Order to crumble in all GW settings after all! ❤️     *

* that part is not serious, but let my damned self trashtalk a bit. 

[MitGas]

 

16 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

Yeah like people also forget that Warhammer as a whole has had an element of dark comedy running throughout it too. Someone posted Goremayne earlier as an example of being this distinctly AOS thing and I completely disagree. Outside of the name, he and everything in the FEC refresh, could easily be a Strigoi army in WHFB. FEC, Soulblight, Seraphon, StD and now Skaven are just 1:1 updates or expansions on stuff that was already in WHFB. Nothing about any of them would look out of place in the old setting. Even a new faction like Kruleboyz wouldn't look out of place, and I've certainly seen enough Chorf players using hobgrots and gutrippaz as Hobgoblins. There's also really nothing about Hedonites that really pushes them outside of the realms of WHFB either. Going further back even the whackiness of GSG fits in perfectly fine because Night Goblins were always whacky.

The only recent AOS release that truly would struggle to fit would be Lumineth. The new SCE wouldn't exactly fit either but as I mentioned before they've had a very obvious aesthetic shift going on for 3 years now that's more based in Warhammer's roots and vibes and less in Diablo 3/Immortal.

And I don't say any of this as a negative thing either. Dark Fantasy is popular and Dark Fantasy is what Warhammer fundamentally is. There's also no need to throw out perfectly good and serviceable ideas that are also mega popular. If they'd gone Ossiarch-levels of "I'm not like the other girls" with Soulblight they 100% wouldn't have landed. Turns out people like gothic undead horror of shambling zombies and skeletons and vampires and vampire bats. It's been a popular thing for like 120 years. These things become tropes and stereotypes because they work and resonate with people. GW finally got the memo a few years ago and realized they should be leaning into it.

Well, I think it's good if they try new things for AoS but I absolutely agree that certain archetypes/themes have simply proven themselves to be popular and it's good GW gives fans of them what they want instead of trying to be "too" creative for the most part. I certainly like the classic themes and if I had more time, I'd love to collect a Death army. Love me some skeletons, especially those new sculpts. Too bad we can't mix and match cause if we could, I'd make a Castlevania army out of the Death armies! I think SCE for example fall into it as well, even if they might be too "mighty/pure/whatever" for TOW. But people just like heavily armored badbutts (dunno if bada...s is allowed here), see Chaos Warriors, or cool undead. 

[Snarff]

9 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

If they'd gone Ossiarch-levels of "I'm not like the other girls" with Soulblight they 100% wouldn't have landed. Turns out people like gothic undead horror of shambling zombies and skeletons and vampires and vampire bats. It's been a popular thing for like 120 years. These things become tropes and stereotypes because they work and resonate with people. GW finally got the memo a few years ago and realized they should be leaning into it.

That's again, speculation without base. Ossiarch are not an unpopular army at all, the subversion of the tropes is exactly what makes them exciting. Exactly how popular or unpopular they are we won't know, but you can't claim they have not landed because you personally dislike them. There is a lot of praise for the crazier AoS models.

Then again, a LOT of Soulblight also does not follow tropes and stereotypes. Russian Werewolf vampires, Asian vampire warrior-monks fighting their vampiric nature by hunting monsters, the Vengorian lord being a dragon-centaur-vampire amalgamation, rat and snake vampires, etc. All of these I've seen being very liked by AoS fans and very much disliked by WFB fans online.

The rest of the kits were updated old kits, mostly basic troups. Of course skeletons and basic vampires are mundane by contrast, but that's what makes the rest stand out. But that does not make the rest any more mundane or less AoS. Same thing with the Sylvaneth updates, the insect riding woodsprites and archers using insects as wings are amazing. The Seraphon show a defnite evolution of the Weaponry and use a lot more technology than their predecessing models. Warcry showcases the diversity of the chaos worshippers within StD.

I'd say that GW is actually leaning into the AoS craziness, which is a great thing, and catering to the classic fantasy fans with TOW. Best of both worlds. If AoS just followed all the classic tropes, it would not nearly be as unique of a setting as it was now, and it certainly wouldn't have models which are this expressive and unique. I can't wait to see how they're going to upgrade Fyreslayers, Kharadron, Idoneth and the rest of the more original armies to make them even crazier and more interesting.

[Snarff]

10 minutes ago, MitGas said:

That's a nice reply for sure, thanks for providing the lore!

Noblebright kinda has grimdark cursing through its veins too, tho, IMO, I see a lot of similar markers, with only the general mood of the good guys and society being better. I dunno, stuff I read, one of the best examples that springs to mind is the short story about the Nurgle herald, were as grimdark as Warhammer Fantasy ever was. That was on Praag levels. I just think it's doing a disservice to Warhammer's grimdarkness to poo-poo on it. Even in a grimdark setting there can be selfless acts of heroism and hope and outside of a rotten society there are many parallels between noblebright and grimdark. I dunno if bright is the adjective suited for AoS. I think it's steering itself into a mix out of those two terms and I'm here for it.

Noblebright and Grimdark are very different in that the entire premise of the settings are different. Noblebright means there is hope, and there is something worth fighting for. Grimdark means in the end everything is hopeless.

Noblebright does not mean there cannot be dark stories in the universe, or bad thigns happening. I loved the stories about the Nurgle herald as well. But the followup in Dawnbringers to that short story is exactly why it's Noblebright rather than Grimdark. If it was Grimdark, you'd get the 'good guys' coming in and purging everyone affected by the plague. Instead, you have the actual good guys coming in and trying to cure them. There's still hope that the plague can be defeated, the people can be cured. People want to help and protect their fellow mortals.

In a Grimdark setting, there can be selfless acts of heroism, but they just serve to perpetuate a rotten society and don't matter in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't consider WFB to be a completely Grimdark setting either. 40K on the other hand, every 'noble' action by the Space Marines only serves to perpetuate a fascist empire. Entire planets are treated as resources, people as expendable, anything not human as 'the enemy'.

17 minutes ago, MitGas said:

I dunno, being forced to fight over and over until your mind, your very being, wastes away... sounds really nice, totally not dark. Totally not like you were a random guy thrown into Lovecraftian circumstances. A "sombre" ceremony, where you can't even recall yourself what you did and who you are... saying goodbye to people you don't even really know. I think that's kinda horrific. Maybe nobledark fits better? 

But that's the thing: Stormcast are NOT forced to fight. They are not even forced to beceome a Stormcast in the first place. The only reason they don't consider themselves to have a choice is because they so strongly WANT to protect others. Excerpt from Skaventide:

‘The real reason we didn’t have a choice isn’t because Sigmar forced us into this role. The real reason is because he looked into our souls and knew we would take this burden, knew that we would fight for him, forever if need be. Because we were the kind of people that would never, could never, let the realms fall into a hell like this.’

It is a sombre ceremony because it involves death. But it is more akin to a funeral, or somebody undergoing euthanasia than anything else. A celebration of the Stormcast's life and deeds because they chose to lay down their weapons for the final time. The choosing is the important part here. In a Grimdark setting, there would not even be choice, nor a ceremony.

[Ejecutor]

26 minutes ago, Snarff said:

That's again, speculation without base. Ossiarch are not an unpopular army at all, the subversion of the tropes is exactly what makes them exciting. Exactly how popular or unpopular they are we won't know, but you can't claim they have not landed because you personally dislike them. There is a lot of praise for the crazier AoS models.

Then again, a LOT of Soulblight also does not follow tropes and stereotypes. Russian Werewolf vampires, Asian vampire warrior-monks fighting their vampiric nature by hunting monsters, the Vengorian lord being a dragon-centaur-vampire amalgamation, rat and snake vampires, etc. All of these I've seen being very liked by AoS fans and very much disliked by WFB fans online.

The rest of the kits were updated old kits, mostly basic troups. Of course skeletons and basic vampires are mundane by contrast, but that's what makes the rest stand out. But that does not make the rest any more mundane or less AoS. Same thing with the Sylvaneth updates, the insect riding woodsprites and archers using insects as wings are amazing. The Seraphon show a defnite evolution of the Weaponry and use a lot more technology than their predecessing models. Warcry showcases the diversity of the chaos worshippers within StD.

I'd say that GW is actually leaning into the AoS craziness, which is a great thing, and catering to the classic fantasy fans with TOW. Best of both worlds. If AoS just followed all the classic tropes, it would not nearly be as unique of a setting as it was now, and it certainly wouldn't have models which are this expressive and unique. I can't wait to see how they're going to upgrade Fyreslayers, Kharadron, Idoneth and the rest of the more original armies to make them even crazier and more interesting.

IMO WHFB and AoS have the same tone. I think you could move any army from one setting to the other and would fit perfectly. It will only vary in the overall setting and its inherited stuff.

[Snarff]

14 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

IMO WHFB and AoS have the same tone. I think you could move any army from one setting to the other and would fit perfectly. It will only vary in the overall setting and its inherited stuff.

I disagree. The entire premise of WFB has always been that Chaos would win in the end. Also (due to the wargame) until the End Times, nothing could change from the status quo, so neither good nor evil could actually have a win.

There was also a much bigger focus on the failings of all the races. The greed and conservatism of the Dwarfs that drove them to isolation, grudges and things like the slayer oath. The superiority complex of the Aelves and their war with the Dwarfs. The faults of Humans. All of this drove them to extinction in the end.

AoS has a much bigger focus on cooperation and how the different races coexist, and together are greater than the sum of their parts.

It's even visible in the Gotrek and Grombrindal stories. Gotrek has gone from seeking a worthy doom to living a worthy life, accepting his place in the realms and aiming to improve them as much as possible for mortals. Grombrindal teaches Duardin of all kinds to work together to survive when they separately wouldn't, and brings together displaced people of all races to help them find purpose. He even ends up destroying a book of grudges to teach everyone to look to the future rather than stay stuck in the past.

[Sathrut]

GW can't win, really. People dislike the more "out there" aesthetic in factions such as Idoneth, Fyreslayers, Lumineth etc, but then others dislike the "tameness" and similarity to their WFB incarnation, such as Seraphon, SBGL, StD, etc. Of course, plenty of people like said factions for those reasons.

Part of the issue is how long it's taking them to replace/update WFB kits (some armies seem set to be using WHFB kits for at least another edition - Night Goblins in GG for example), and the lack of attention AoS specific factions (Fyreslayers and Idoneth come to mind), have received kit wise, outside of single heroes and Warcry/Underworlds.

Like @Bosskelot says, most AoS ranges fit right in to WFB, because a lot of the wacky, out there stuff of AoS is and always has been present in WFB.

As always, a vocal minority hate AoS (and TOW/W:TT because they're too much like AoS), with most TOW/WFB fans happy to use AoS kits. To be clear, I'm talking about AoS specific kits, not the remaining WFB ones. So far I've seen: CoS, GG, DoK, FEC, OBR, StD, SBGL, Skaven, Idoneth, Fyreslayers, Kruleboyz, Ironjawz, Lumineth, Nighthaunt, Sylvaneth, various Warcry/Underworlds, even endless spells used as terrain.

Personally, I like that AoS is flourishing. I like that the designers have more creative freedom than the 40K team. I like the mix of whacky and grounded aesthetics. I like that AoS and TOW co-exist, because the variety of kits and modelling opportunities are greater than ever. I'll continue to buy AoS minis that I want in my WFB/TOW armies, because they are genuinely fantastic and, to me, fit right in.

Edited August 4 by Sathrut

[MitGas]

44 minutes ago, Snarff said:

Noblebright and Grimdark are very different in that the entire premise of the settings are different. Noblebright means there is hope, and there is something worth fighting for. Grimdark means in the end everything is hopeless.

Noblebright does not mean there cannot be dark stories in the universe, or bad thigns happening. I loved the stories about the Nurgle herald as well. But the followup in Dawnbringers to that short story is exactly why it's Noblebright rather than Grimdark. If it was Grimdark, you'd get the 'good guys' coming in and purging everyone affected by the plague. Instead, you have the actual good guys coming in and trying to cure them. There's still hope that the plague can be defeated, the people can be cured. People want to help and protect their fellow mortals.

In a Grimdark setting, there can be selfless acts of heroism, but they just serve to perpetuate a rotten society and don't matter in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't consider WFB to be a completely Grimdark setting either. 40K on the other hand, every 'noble' action by the Space Marines only serves to perpetuate a fascist empire. Entire planets are treated as resources, people as expendable, anything not human as 'the enemy'.

But that's the thing: Stormcast are NOT forced to fight. They are not even forced to beceome a Stormcast in the first place. The only reason they don't consider themselves to have a choice is because they so strongly WANT to protect others. Excerpt from Skaventide:

‘The real reason we didn’t have a choice isn’t because Sigmar forced us into this role. The real reason is because he looked into our souls and knew we would take this burden, knew that we would fight for him, forever if need be. Because we were the kind of people that would never, could never, let the realms fall into a hell like this.’

It is a sombre ceremony because it involves death. But it is more akin to a funeral, or somebody undergoing euthanasia than anything else. A celebration of the Stormcast's life and deeds because they chose to lay down their weapons for the final time. The choosing is the important part here. In a Grimdark setting, there would not even be choice, nor a ceremony.

„They so strongly want to“ yuk! makes it all the better that they suffer, that level of heroism is disgusting in its naivety.
 

Your definition of grimdark solely reflects what you know of 40k it seems to me. There are absolutely levels of grimdarkness, WHFB was grimdark too and yet it wasn‘t hopeless until it got nuked. 
 

And the grimdarkness you paint here doesn‘t even describe modern 40k anymore, with Rowboat Girlyman being back and all… 

 

Anyways, if they keep it properly dark I‘m happy. I got no use for a lame setting like Forgotten Realms where way too much is nice and bright now. Hence why I loathe the bright moniker. And frankly, after the terribly weak start of AoS it‘s course got corrected to something more tasty. And I thank them making it darker again for it. 🙏

[HorticulusTGA]

6 minutes ago, Snarff said:

I disagree.

I'm with you. But any WFB factions with its scope and themes would fit in AOS (but not with its "history" of course). That is possible because AOS' scope is bigger, the setting larger and more open. And its end is undecided. Whereas WFB and HH are written in stone. Though with the Great Crusade, "hope" (and some kind of rationality) was a theme in that last setting.

TOW, as an unexplored (and minimally retconned) time period, offers many options for interesting storytelling and explorations, even if Chaos is slowly gaining power again (the rise of the Beast Incarnate : Asavar Kul). But we know exactly how the Great War Against Chaos ends : with a victory of the Free People that is in fact the real return of Chaos in the world and the beginning of the End (Times) with Archaon and Be'lakor narrative arcs.

And of course, 40k, mostly from the human point of view, is an horrible, dystopian mess.

Some of it was passed to AOS at the end of 1st edition (with Malign Portents), as well as Mordheim-esque macabre aesthetic (with Shadow Over Hammerhal, later leading to Cursed City and CoS) : 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/02/24/closer-look-art/#gallery-1-2

Those elements were added to the High Fantasy, Mythological scope of AOS, they did not replace it. Also, WFB had hyper technological High Fantasy elements (being linked to the Warhammer multiverse, principally with the Old Ones and Chaos, the Wastes, etc., but not only) :

We need to remember that there was a tonal shift in AOS with many retcons at the end of the Realmgate Wars series. For example, Seraphon (compare the 2015 Battletome to the 06.2018 Malign Portents Short Story "Dying Star", both in 1st edition) or Aqshy's geography changed a lot during the second half of 1st edition. But it was still AOS 1st edition that set in motions themes we are only know exploring in full (most notably: the Flaw in Reforging).

And let's remember that the Ruination aesthetic was very present in the very fist SCE Blanche Sketches ! The Game and the Setting are really coming together now.

Now that Cursed City, Warcry gangs, Darkoath and Cities of Sigmar are done and esthablished design-wise, GW can now inject a little more High Fantasy back again - pretty please, hopefully with Ogors and Chorfs releases !!!

[Clan's Cynic]

Just 40k pre-orders next week, however...

Quote

Next week on Warhammer Community we’ll have the conclusion to the Slaughter at Hel Crown global campaign, with a full reveal for the winning side’s upcoming miniatures on Saturday the 10th of August.

 

[Skreech Verminking]

7 hours ago, JerekKruger said:

This is true. I think claims that they don't have an AoS identity are based purely on two things: (i) that nearly they're entire range is a holdover from WHFB, so people who played that will naturally associate them with it (and therefore not AoS) and (ii) that nearly they're entire range is older and doesn't have the dynamic paint of modern AoS sculpts. 

But this is purely a mini aesthetics thing. As a faction (or arguably two mini factions) they have perfectly good AoS lore, and I can guarantee that if they get remade a la Skaven (i.e. mostly just modern reimagining of their current sculpts rather than a complete change of direction) they feel perfectly AoSy as any other faction.

there are only really a few units that don’t quit fit into some armies, but that is less of am not aos esthetic problem and more that the army they are in doesn’t quit fit them.

I think this is something we see with the remaining druchiis in cities of sigmar.

personally It hinknthe high elves probably would fit a lot better with the current cities range and the dark elves just kinda feel misplaced.

although that doesn’t mean they don’t fit into the aos esthetic.

the dark elves would fit actually quit well i to the new setting, as long as they can actually represent something that makes sense

they are quit cruel and you kinda see that in their esthetic, combine that nature with what has been removed from the dok and you actually have an amazing army that kinda just works for aos.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Sathrut said:

GW can't win, really. People dislike the more "out there" aesthetic in factions such as Idoneth, Fyreslayers, Lumineth etc, but then others dislike the "tameness" and similarity to their WFB incarnation, such as Seraphon, SBGL, StD, etc. Of course, plenty of people like said factions for those reasons.

Part of the issue is how long it's taking them to replace/update WFB kits (some armies seem set to be using WHFB kits for at least another edition - Night Goblins in GG for example), and the lack of attention AoS specific factions (Fyreslayers and Idoneth come to mind), have received kit wise, outside of single heroes and Warcry/Underworlds.

Like @Bosskelot says, most AoS ranges fit right in to WFB, because a lot of the wacky, out there stuff of AoS is and always has been present in WFB.

As always, a vocal minority hate AoS (and TOW/W:TT because they're too much like AoS), with most TOW/WFB fans happy to use AoS kits. To be clear, I'm talking about AoS specific kits, not the remaining WFB ones. So far I've seen: CoS, GG, DoK, FEC, OBR, StD, SBGL, Skaven, Idoneth, Fyreslayers, Kruleboyz, Ironjawz, Lumineth, Nighthaunt, Sylvaneth, various Warcry/Underworlds, even endless spells used as terrain.

Personally, I like that AoS is flourishing. I like that the designers have more creative freedom than the 40K team. I like the mix of whacky and grounded aesthetics. I like that AoS and TOW co-exist, because the variety of kits and modelling opportunities are greater than ever. I'll continue to buy AoS minis that I want in my WFB/TOW armies, because they are genuinely fantastic and, to me, fit right in.

definitely.

if you know of any doy that made some cool slayer conversion out of fyreslayer (with kilts or actual obelix pants) I’d be thankful if you could share me the link for those pictures/video.

 

Edited August 4 by Skreech Verminking

[Dragon-knight77]

20 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Just 40k pre-orders next week, however...

 

yep that to be expected hope for at least a good teaser model tomorrow maybe the Rattling gunner or Globadier 

kind of sad I still have to wait another week until AOS novels come out i really excited to get hand on "On the Shoulder of Giants" anthology book

Wait a minute! Wait a minute! the special edition codex is just the Witch hunter cover art poorly edited into a terrible background? nooooooooooooo i just just can't. what is going on with this codex?

apparently it also has no new lore apart from Coteaz is currently hunting Vashtorr that was already told in white dwarf. This has to be one GW biggest fumble in 2024 maybe behind great squatting (even then that event can be argue)

the only thing i can enjoyed of AoI release is the fact that they're brought back bunch of models form Blackstone fortress like the Navigator and Ministorum Priest

i wouldn't mind if they do that for some of Cursed city or Silver tower heroes

Edited August 4 by Dragon-knight77

[Sathrut]

5 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

definitely.

if you know of any doy that made some cool slayer conversion out of fyreslayer (with kilts or actual obelix pants) I’d be thankful if you could share me the link for those pictures/video.

 

I'm afraid I don't have any to share, just what I saw scrolling on reddit months ago. If I come across anymore I'll message you.