Warhammer - The Old World

[Tonhel]

GW doesn't delay a dwarf release for bad O&G sales. Their is no pattern for such a drastic decision. TK and Bretonnia did a lot better than they expected. I can perfectly imagine that O&G didn't sell well. Old mini's that have a high price tag and the sculpts aren't imo really great. Only the Arcane journal and Black Orc Bigboss were new. The new Shaman is still MIA. What did GW expect? That we would buy those old and dated plastics for absurd prices + a price hike?

If the Tomb Kings release and Bretonnia release was a failure and than O&G was a failure than yes, delaying dwarfs could have been a possibility as than TOW flopped. But as the start was a succes and O&G flopped it doesn't make sense to panic and delay dwarfs. Certainly when the dwarfs battalion is a lot better, has more new resin kits and a new plastic kit.

@Sarouan is imo correct, it seems that sadly dwarfs were never planned for a june release.

[cyrus]

8 hours ago, Ogregut said:

How does moving the release date affect that?

 

IF they already know that Dwarfs will underperform/undersell , they probably want to release it in a less risky window and not at end / beginning of financial year.

 

They probably knew it already that after nostalgia hype train of launch boxes , oop Bretonnia and Tomb kings , ToW sales should normalise.

As former O&G player I can confirm it was a poor battalion and very disappointing  to have only two new resin miniatures .

 

Dwarfs dice were already spotted at the beginning of January 😱

 

Edited June 10 by cyrus

[Tonhel]

23 minutes ago, cyrus said:

IF they already know that Dwarfs will underperform/undersell , they probably want to release it in a less risky window and not at end / beginning of financial year.

 

They probably knew it already that after nostalgia hype train of launch boxes , oop Bretonnia and Tomb kings , ToW sales should normalise.

As former O&G player I can confirm it was a poor battalion and very disappointing  to have only two new resin miniatures .

 

Dwarfs dice were already spotted at the beginning of January 😱

 

Only 1 new mini, as we are still waiting for the new resin shaman...

[JackStreicher]

11 hours ago, Tonhel said:

Only 1 new mini, as we are still waiting for the new resin shaman...

They don't even manage to deliver preorders. I am STILL waiting on my Lady Duchaard which I preordered from them the moment the preorder went live.
I am running out of salt at this point.

[Ejecutor]

6 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

They don't even manage to deliver preorders. I am STILL waiting on my Lady Duchaard which I preordered from them the moment the preorder went live.
I am running out of salt at this point.

I ordered a Bretonian Box like 4 months ago and I am still waiting...

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Ejecutor said:

I ordered a Bretonian Box like 4 months ago and I am still waiting...

Is the customer support also ghosting you?

[Ejecutor]

Just now, JackStreicher said:

Is the customer support also ghosting you?

3rd party store, but they are ghosting the store... 

In terms of customer support from my own experience, I ended up buying the box from somewhere else and it was missing a horse head and I got it from GW in less than 15 days.

[Sarouan]

Waiting for my old school river trolls, but GW customer service assured me they have my order, so that's that. The bright side is that I'm currently turning my attention on my Pile of Shame and spend more time building / painting these sprues.

To be honest, I could spend more than the rest of my life on my unpainted collection without buying / printing anything else...

[JackStreicher]

3 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Waiting for my old school river trolls, but GW customer service assured me they have my order, so that's that. The bright side is that I'm currently turning my attention on my Pile of Shame and spend more time building / painting these sprues.

To be honest, I could spend more than the rest of my life on my unpainted collection without buying / printing anything else...

not an option XD

[Tonhel]

That's abs

7 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

They don't even manage to deliver preorders. I am STILL waiting on my Lady Duchaard which I preordered from them the moment the preorder went live.
I am running out of salt at this point.

That's absurd. It makes you wonder how messed up GW logistics are at the moment.

[Skreech Verminking]

On 6/10/2024 at 7:14 PM, Tonhel said:

GW doesn't delay a dwarf release for bad O&G sales. Their is no pattern for such a drastic decision. TK and Bretonnia did a lot better than they expected. I can perfectly imagine that O&G didn't sell well. Old mini's that have a high price tag and the sculpts aren't imo really great. Only the Arcane journal and Black Orc Bigboss were new. The new Shaman is still MIA. What did GW expect? That we would buy those old and dated plastics for absurd prices + a price hike?

If the Tomb Kings release and Bretonnia release was a failure and than O&G was a failure than yes, delaying dwarfs could have been a possibility as than TOW flopped. But as the start was a succes and O&G flopped it doesn't make sense to panic and delay dwarfs. Certainly when the dwarfs battalion is a lot better, has more new resin kits and a new plastic kit.

@Sarouan is imo correct, it seems that sadly dwarfs were never planned for a june release.

Yeah and a lot of the dwarf models actually look decent to good

[Ejecutor]

They are coming...

[Sarouan]

It will be nice to have a box of 20 longbeards / hammerers with good old 25mm square base. Ironbreakers / Irondrakes too, but I always loved more the longbeard ones.

[Skreech Verminking]

On 6/13/2024 at 2:44 PM, Sarouan said:

It will be nice to have a box of 20 longbeards / hammerers with good old 25mm square base. Ironbreakers / Irondrakes too, but I always loved more the longbeard ones.

Yeah especially if they come slughtly cheaper then when we had to buy them in boxes of tens.

anyways change of tooic, I’ll be playing a game of tow tomorrow, and to change rhings up I promised my opponents to take an ogre list to battle.

this’ll be my list:

===
The treasure seekers [1997 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Ogre Kingdoms
===

++ Characters [623 pts] ++

Slaughtermaster [330 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Butcher's Cauldron
- Level 4 Wizard
- Spangleshard
- Battle Magic

Tyrant [293 pts]
- Ironfist
- Light armour
- Brace of Ogre pistols
- General
- On Foot
- Mastodon Armour
- Giant Blade
- Giantbreaker

++ Core Units [622 pts] ++

6 Ogre Bulls [228 pts]
- Ironfists
- Light armour
- Crusher (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Bellower (musician)

8 Iron Guts [394 pts]
- Hand Weapons
- Great Weapons
- Heavy Armour
- Look-out Gnoblar (Standard bearer)
- Veteran
- Gutlord
- Standard bearer [Rune Maw]
- Bellower (musician)

++ Special Units [752 pts] ++

3 Leadbelchers [131 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Leadbelcher guns
- Light armour
- Thunderfist

4 Mournfang Cavalry [305 pts]
- Great weapon
- Heavy armour
- Crusher (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Bellower (musician)

3 Leadbelchers [131 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Leadbelcher guns
- Light armour
- Thunderfist

Ironblaster [185 pts]
- Cannon of the Sky-titans
- Hand weapons

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]
 

no idea if it will be good, but man are maneaters expensive, I had to take the cheaper option after trying to fit them into my list😂.

I guess the Ironguts will have to do as ly tyrant guard

[Sarouan]

Today I played a 2000 points battle with my goblins against my sworn enemies, the dwarves. It is undoubtly a sign they're coming short-ly.

Have some pictures to make the wait more bearable :

[Bolfrig Bearhide]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/06/16/sunday-preview-ready-yourself-for-the-next-warhammer-40000-balance-dataslate/
 

surely they’re taking the mick at this point?

[Sarouan]

Ah well it's all right. Dwarves live long lives, what's a couple more weeks to wait for them ?

[Aphotic]

O&G release was bad. The box sucked, and I play O&G. Not surprised. Probably holding off until next quarter... who knows. Sad to say, but TOW has died down in my area.

[TaeRam]

TOW is dying everywhere because of the terrible game management (at the level of miniatures and pace of outputs) that GW is doing with this game.

[Sarouan]

I don't think TOW is "dying" because of that. I think like all GW "secundary" games, the hype has passed since the first release and we're actually going to a more "normal" state for it. I believe it's objectively an old-school complicated game that takes a lot of time and investment* to play and that's the real reason why Old World is less seen on the game tables / has few new players.

*Not just talking about money here...it really takes a lot of time to get used to all the rules (especially the special ones and their internal interactions), to get your armies ready (have to work not just on the miniatures, but the move trays too), to set a date and hour while making sure you have enough time to prepare the game / play the game. Set the table, put the miniatures on their move trays, deploy everything, play while checking the rules / FAQ, put back everything in their bags after the game : it takes usually 3 to 4 hours when you're used to it / have an efficient method. That's not a quick game at all, and it usually takes more than just a week to be ready to play - especially for a new player. And that means not everyone has that kind of free time to spend on a game - be it a student or a working guy with a family to take care.

I believe a lot of players actually take their time building / painting their armies, which means you don't see them for a long period of time before they actually play. It's not like the hell pace of 40k and AoS, where there's a lot more pressure to be fast before rules change / your army is "useless" because of the last meta. Means the sales aren't great for the retailers, but it's much less stressful for the players I feel.

Edited June 18 by Sarouan

[Ejecutor]

1 hour ago, TaeRam said:

TOW is dying everywhere because of the terrible game management (at the level of miniatures and pace of outputs) that GW is doing with this game.

But maybe it could resurge once we have all the armies released?

[Marcvs]

I know it's the internet but I wish people were a bit more nuanced in their statements and more aware of the anecdotal nature of their experience.

My anecdotal point of view is that TOW is going from strenght to strenght at my small club. We picked up more players (the last two with O&G and Empire), have all the core armies represented plus a couple of Pdf ones, I can easily find a game of TOW every time the club is open and one of our players just finished writing the rules for a campaign which will start after the Summer break.

Does it mean the game is doing great? Not at all, but let's not declare the death of the game just because it's slowing down in your community or, more importantly, because it feels dead when compared to the relentless news cycle for the main GW games. TOW, just as most other non-40k/AoS games, is not the kind of lifestyle game where you can turn on the socials and discuss the news of the day, so if you're expecting that, of course it feels dead.

On the other hand, I am very ready to believe the game is selling poorly in terms of minis. Again, my anecdotal experience, is that those who didn't have old collections, just printed/bought 3d prints or built their armies with alternative ranges. What this means for the future of the game I cannot say, but I still feel more confident investing in TOW than in other "niche" systems because ultimately the WHFB community saw their game die and (in small pockets, but quite well esatblished in my area) kept going. I just hope it lives long enough to publish all the arcane journals (and let me buy some version of Orion).

[Tonhel]

53 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

I know it's the internet but I wish people were a bit more nuanced in their statements and more aware of the anecdotal nature of their experience.

My anecdotal point of view is that TOW is going from strenght to strenght at my small club. We picked up more players (the last two with O&G and Empire), have all the core armies represented plus a couple of Pdf ones, I can easily find a game of TOW every time the club is open and one of our players just finished writing the rules for a campaign which will start after the Summer break.

Does it mean the game is doing great? Not at all, but let's not declare the death of the game just because it's slowing down in your community or, more importantly, because it feels dead when compared to the relentless news cycle for the main GW games. TOW, just as most other non-40k/AoS games, is not the kind of lifestyle game where you can turn on the socials and discuss the news of the day, so if you're expecting that, of course it feels dead.

On the other hand, I am very ready to believe the game is selling poorly in terms of minis. Again, my anecdotal experience, is that those who didn't have old collections, just printed/bought 3d prints or built their armies with alternative ranges. What this means for the future of the game I cannot say, but I still feel more confident investing in TOW than in other "niche" systems because ultimately the WHFB community saw their game die and (in small pockets, but quite well esatblished in my area) kept going. I just hope it lives long enough to publish all the arcane journals (and let me buy some version of Orion).

100% agree.

Imo, the biggest problem for TOW is that it is a side game for GW, but at the same time the magnitude of TOW is almost at the same level as AoS. I didn't do the math, but the sheer number of different miniature sets / characters mini's that are needed to be available for TOW is immense even with only 9 core factions. It's quite possible that TOW is just to big to be handled as a side game.

To make it even harder for GW they are selling i.e. night goblin mob for TOW and Stabbas for AoS. But they are the same night goblins, an older and a newer variant. Both existed before AoS even was a thing. Instead of just using the same night goblins for both games, but no. GW want to complicate things.

[Sarouan]

1 hour ago, Ejecutor said:

But maybe it could resurge once we have all the armies released?

I think not. It's not just a question of having all the armies released or not. Availability in stock outside of the initial release is also an issue that Horus Heresy constantly has to deal with, for example (and also Old World...these damn bases seem to be always out of stock for the size I'm seeking right at the time I need them...). But everything else like the game system, the time needed to play and so on also play a (much) major role IMHO.

[Sarouan]

31 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

To make it even harder for GW they are selling i.e. night goblin mob for TOW and Stabbas for AoS. But they are the same night goblins, an older and a newer variant. Both existed before AoS even was a thing. Instead of just using the same night goblins for both games, but no. GW want to complicate things.

I think you don't understand how complex the situation actually is from GW's point of view. Sure, you could sell the night goblin for both AoS and Old World...but then there's the base issue. If you keep the boxes for AoS (thus only round bases), that means the customers need to buy Old World square bases separately. And that means, of course, an extra buy (and extra price). Not even talking about availability of said bases at the time you want to buy your night goblins (online or in retail, double issue because one doesn't necessarily have the same stock disponibility than the other). Same if you do the opposite (box for Old World with square bases, then buy the round bases separately). Selling 2 boxes, 1 for AoS and 1 for Old World also has issues for retailers : technically it's the same product but with different bases, and shops have a limited space for storage. They'll likely try to have only one box type to spare that.

So you'd say the solution is to sell a box with both square and round bases inside, right ? Well that's an issue too : it means a  box repackaging, that takes time and production too because the covers have to include the change of content. And most importantly, including both bases mean a significant increase cost in production (well, you have both bases for say 20 night goblins, so 20 round bases and 20 square bases : it doesn't come free) AND in box space (20 more bases mean certainly a slightly bigger box, thus taking more space on the shelves in retail and logistic : sure, one box isn't much, but multiply it by 100 and suddenly a small difference in size becomes a big one in storage). And I'm not sure AoS players would be happy to pay their night goblins more because they have square bases inside that they absolutely don't care about.

In comparison, releasing old night goblins that have their own boxes feel a lot simpler (a new product for a specific game system, you don't have to deal with the mess from retailers having "old boxes that don't sell" or confusion with sales going for AoS or Old World). From GW's point of view, of course.

Edited June 18 by Sarouan