Warhammer - The Old World

[Bosskelot]

I think the title is a bit clickbait'y but they did raise a lot of good points w/r/t to how to judge the popularity of the game. I also think Val's point about how the top of the pyramid is only being served right now and there's a huge untapped pool of potential fans of the setting who are barely being catered to.

Val also made another good point about the IP reasons for squatting WHFB always feeling really stupid. Feeling constrained by the setting and thinking it's too small was always an absurd justification for a fictional planet that is basically Earth. You heard it here folks; you just can't tell interesting stories on Earth. It's too small, not enough history, not enough variety.

[Tonhel]

21 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

I think the title is a bit clickbait'y but they did raise a lot of good points w/r/t to how to judge the popularity of the game. I also think Val's point about how the top of the pyramid is only being served right now and there's a huge untapped pool of potential fans of the setting who are barely being catered to.

Val also made another good point about the IP reasons for squatting WHFB always feeling really stupid. Feeling constrained by the setting and thinking it's too small was always an absurd justification for a fictional planet that is basically Earth. You heard it here folks; you just can't tell interesting stories on Earth. It's too small, not enough history, not enough variety.

I really like the Rob & Val combo. Very enjoyable to watch while painting.

It's also refreshing that they are not downplaying AoS or any other game.

When they summed up all the roadblocks that GW created when they released TOW, it's amazing how alive TOW is from their observations (even with the release of AoS 4th).

Even now it is still almost impossible to make a TOW army for the core factions that already had a miniature release. It's only possible if you still have your old Warhammer army, 3D printed everything or are one of the happy few that managed to order everything needed before going "temporarily out of stock".

The examples of the GoT, The Witcher and than that earth was seemingly to small for GW developers to make interesting stories and etc hit like a truck.

I still think they are a bit to optimistic in their thinking that TOW has the potential to become GW's biggest game, but it's very true that they only are scratching the upper top of the pyramid of potential customers.

TOW could certainly lure in some AoS players that do want a bit more for their army. The customization difference between both games is huge (to huge imo).

Anyway, everytime I watch a Rob & Val stream I am pumped for the future of TOW.

Edited August 3 by Tonhel

[Sathrut]

2 hours ago, Bosskelot said:

I think the title is a bit clickbait'y but they did raise a lot of good points w/r/t to how to judge the popularity of the game. I also think Val's point about how the top of the pyramid is only being served right now and there's a huge untapped pool of potential fans of the setting who are barely being catered to.

Val also made another good point about the IP reasons for squatting WHFB always feeling really stupid. Feeling constrained by the setting and thinking it's too small was always an absurd justification for a fictional planet that is basically Earth. You heard it here folks; you just can't tell interesting stories on Earth. It's too small, not enough history, not enough variety.

Ah, the classics:

"WHFB was stagnant. Everything had been explored/explained. Hard to justify X faction fighting Z faction (usually Lizardmen/Tomb Kings/Wood Elves). No room for your dudes."

We know everything about the race inhabiting the sunken temple cities off the coasts of Lustria and Naggoroth. Or the remains of the civilisation that Malekith discovered in the Chaos Wastes, predating Dwarfs and Elves. Or the Southlands, or Sartosa, Tilea, Estalia, Araby, Cathay, Badlands, or all the places inside the Empire left unexplored, the Underway, etc etc.

Wood Elves had the world roots to travel between forests. Lizardmen could teleport. Tomb Kings had a fleet. Ogres were happy to travel great distances in search of food and a fight. O&G, Skaven and Beastmen were everywhere. Dark Elves raided the Old World and Lustria, while defending against Chaos and Undead incursions from the north. High Elves had outposts scattered across the world. Dwarfs had a fleet and frequent expeditions to reclaim lost holds, mines. I could go on, but there were plenty of reasons for all factions to fight each other,

As for "no room for your dudes", I've never quite understood this view, considering the number of "your dude" armies featured in WD, collector's guide series, online articles, etc.

Edited August 3 by Sathrut

[Bosskelot]

2 hours ago, Tonhel said:

The examples of the GoT, The Witcher and than that earth was seemingly to small for GW developers to make interesting stories and etc hit like a truck.

I think what's interesting is that GW seemingly had that same thought about aesthetics and vibe and realized they had drastically misjudged the general cultural zeitgeist surrounding fantasy settings. Grimdark fantasy has been in fashion for the past 20 years and definitely reached it's peak in the last decade, and still seemingly shows no signs of slowing down. It's just a thing that people inherently like, are drawn to and can immediately resonate with because in a lot of cases its just more down to earth and relatable.

The past 4 years of AOS releases have been pivoting away from the wildness of early AOS. There's a lot more grimdark in them (just look at Thunderstrike and Ruination for instance; GW realized the Blizzard-style they went for with OG SCE wasn't the style most fantasy fans actually like) and the most popular and successful releases have just been LITERAL WARHAMMER FANTASY RANGE REFRESHES. It's not just model ranges either, this shift is reflected across artwork and lore for the setting too. I mean just compare the front cover of the 3rd ed rulebook to any piece of art from 1st or most of 2nd.

 

24 minutes ago, Sathrut said:

Ah, the classics:

"WHFB was stagnant. Everything had been explored/explained. Hard to justify X faction fighting Z faction (usually Lizardmen/Tomb Kings/Wood Elves). No room for your dudes."

 Meanwhile a year after WHFB was squatted you had Creative Assembly just casually putting extra factions of whatever race wherever they wanted and using all manner or lore and game reasons to justify it. And it worked.

Somehow the fact that some factions needed boats to interact with another faction was seen as this major sticking point and somehow stopped people from enjoying the game, meanwhile in 40k people have been happy to play nonsensical mirror match-ups for years and not worry about the lore implications.

[Skreech Verminking]

26 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

Meanwhile a year after WHFB was squatted you had Creative Assembly just casually putting extra factions of whatever race wherever they wanted and using all manner or lore and game reasons to justify it. And it worked.

There are definitely a lot of new units that they have added of which we have never heard of nor seen in the lore for those faction,

yet it isn’t as bad as it sounds.

it fives new content and as ling as it fits into the world it just kinda works.

also so far all of the factions that are currently in tww3 have officially existed in some of the edittions that made up fantasy.

but I do have to agree with you in some point.

cathay, tilea and so on are places I’ve heard the first tome about when I was playing tww3 I’ve played 8th edition but during that edition there wasn’t much mentioning about cathay, Kislev, the merc cities, border princes etc. 

it took me some tome to dig into older editions, like those of the 5th, 6th or 4th, before I was able to find some models and even books/lore of those factions

[Bosskelot]

I'm not talking about entirely new factions, just stuff like "Oh how would the Dwarfs and Lizardmen ever fight???" and CA just casually said "there are Dwarf holds in Lustria and the Southlands. Done."

[Sathrut]

2 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

Meanwhile a year after WHFB was squatted you had Creative Assembly just casually putting extra factions of whatever race wherever they wanted and using all manner or lore and game reasons to justify it. And it worked.

Somehow the fact that some factions needed boats to interact with another faction was seen as this major sticking point and somehow stopped people from enjoying the game, meanwhile in 40k people have been happy to play nonsensical mirror match-ups for years and not worry about the lore implications.

I never understood it, really.

"Why would Tomb Kings fight Lizardmen?" An expedition to Lustria had plundered an abandoned temple city. Chameleon skinks, scouting ahead of a host coming to retrieve the abandoned artefacts, arrived in time to only see the expedition leave. Having heard the tales of what stalks the jungles, the expedition wastes no time in returning to their ships. Forced off course by a storm, the expedition fleet has to skirt the Khemri coast. They are soon discovered by the Tomb Kings fleet. The Liche Priests accompanying the fleet, on sensing the potency of the artefacts, settle on a more cautious approach. Hailing the fleet, the expedition are surprised that the undead are speaking their language. Naturally they distrust the undead, but being surrounded and outnumbered, they have little choice. Once escorted to to Zandri, the Liche Priests 'negotiate', and during the unloading of artefacts, the air crackles and the Liche Priests detect the swell of magic before the Lizardmen host appears. One of the attending Skink Priests surprises both man and undead in speaking the formers language, demanding the return of what was stolen. By now, the expedition leaders were assessing the situation, calculating that the the treasures yet unloaded would still see them very rich and powerful back home. With a silent signal, the crews began preparing the ships to slip away, as the undead were set to be occupied with the sudden intrusion.

Like that's a rough outline that could easily be turned into a longer campaign, involving numerous factions along the way, like something out of the Generals Compendium, involving naval battles, skirmishes, culminating in the grand battle. You could have a Dwarf outpost in Lustria, where maverick engineers have come to test their inventions far away from the confines and restrictions of the Engineering Guild; Slayers after hearing tales of beasts that stalk the jungles, others swayed by the promise of gold.

And you can do this for all factions. There's nothing wrong in changing or creating things to fit your army, especially if what does exist is vague or mentioned briefly in a few sentences.
 

[JackStreicher]

The whole „makes no sense that faction x fights faction y“ was created by GW trying to keep the whf lore as stagnant and unchanging as possible. There’s endless good reasons any fight could happen, the easiest solution would be „oh small chaos portals appeared everywhere“

[Skreech Verminking]

Let the grudging begin!

[Noserenda]

Also, bear in mind they actually control the world, its not beyond altering if they needed. Just have the magical apocalypses of the End times (Or whatever) put cracks in the magical crust of the planet and pop up realmgates wherever the narrative requires them and behold never having to explain why anyone is anywhere ever again.

Plus i really liked the models they made for them and wish id grabbed some! Foolishly assumed something so core to AoS would remain in production...

[JackStreicher]

The new Dwarves are amazing sculpts. Imo the shield bearers are even better than the King/Thane they’re carrying.

 

 

Edited August 4 by JackStreicher

[AquaRegis]

20 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

The whole „makes no sense that faction x fights faction y“ was created by GW trying to keep the whf lore as stagnant and unchanging as possible. There’s endless good reasons any fight could happen, the easiest solution would be „oh small chaos portals appeared everywhere“

The only two races where the argument of "I can't imagine them fighting" stands up, is a conflict between the Empire and the dwarfs because of the pact if friendship between the dwarf king and Sigmar after blackfire pass. Even then you can imagine a scenario of a Elector count crossing the dwarfs causing the dwarfs to settle a grudge. 

There's a tonne of old lore about wars between the Empire and Bretonnia, including civil wars within the faction. Wood elves and High elves despite being from the same peoples, don't see eye to eye. Lizardmen have thier own inscrutable goals so you can justify them fighting any faction, even rivalry between two Slam. mage priests who have very different interpretations of the great plan. 

 

The inter-connectivity  of the old world was one of its major strengths, and imo the vagueness of AOS is it's biggest weakness. Sometimes tightly defined universes are way more engaging then vague expansive ones. 

 

 

Edited August 4 by AquaRegis

[AquaRegis]

Another point on "your dudes" is that it's actually possible to fully customize your own models and have the rules reflect it in WHFB. 

You can create a really cool unique AOS faction (like a obsidian forest Elf army is saw) but you have to fit that army around existing rules for army. Your cool hero model has a black  flame halberd? Well he has to use the rules for a cellestant prime. 

Just take a look at the Bretonnia arcane journal, and the two armies of renown completely change how you can build and army and it's theme. You can build a functioning infantry army for Bretonnia and create little narratives for each unit as you customize them. 

As an example one of my Peasant militias for my Bretonnia army has an Ork skull on their flag, that I put there because the top of the banner snapped. I've run with the idea that they previously held off a small Goblin raid with one or two orcs, and have named themselves the "orc Slayers". I've added a couple of trinkets to the unit, customized a man at arms for them and am working on a base filler with a dead orc. The little narrative touches like that go a long way into building a cohesive and interesting army. 

 

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, AquaRegis said:

You can create a really cool unique AOS faction (like a obsidian forest Elf army is saw) but you have to fit that army around existing rules for army. Your cool hero model has a black  flame halberd? Well he has to use the rules for a cellestant prime. 

The lack of AoS‘s customization for units combined with the (still) overblown mortality makes individual units meaningless. Units die and new replacement units come back at such a rate that creating your own custom unit is a waste of time since it will almost certainly die every game.

It‘s also the reason why it feels like a board game to me and why, as of now, I prefer Spearhead over regular games since Spearhead feels like it‘s how AoS is supposed to be played, while the regular game feels like a bigger yet sluggish drawn out version of Spearhead without adding anything meaningful. (Sorry for the half-negativity there, I still like AoS but playing it doesn’t i spire me atm)

 

Edit: Oh and btw the Thane looks good if one places the arm pointing up!

Edited August 4 by JackStreicher

[Ejecutor]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

The lack of AoS‘s customization for units combined with the (still) overblown mortality makes individual units meaningless. Units die and new replacement units come back at such a rate that creating your own custom unit is a waste of time since it will almost certainly die every game.

It‘s also the reason why it feels like a board game to me and why, as of now, I prefer Spearhead over regular games since Spearhead feels like it‘s how AoS is supposed to be played, while the regular game feels like a bigger yet sluggish drawn out version of Spearhead without adding anything meaningful. (Sorry for the half-negativity there, I still like AoS but playing it doesn’t i spire me atm)

 

Edit: Oh and btw the Thane looks good if one places the arm pointing up!

How many bits do you have left? Or is that full usage?

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Ejecutor said:

How many bits do you have left? Or is that full usage?

Full usage. There’s one stein mug I didn’t attach but that’s all.

[Beliman]

16 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

The lack of AoS‘s customization for units combined with the (still) overblown mortality makes individual units meaningless. Units die and new replacement units come back at such a rate that creating your own custom unit is a waste of time since it will almost certainly die every game.

Totally agree with the costumization argument. I would add that AoS doens't need the same type of customization as TOW, but something inbetween could be good (there are A LOT of games with less customization than TOW that are perfectly fun to play with "your dudes", soe of them even won some wargaming awards too... but that's just an anecdote).

About the lethalityand replacement units argument about AoS, I must disagree.

[Ejecutor]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

Totally agree with the costumization argument. I would add that AoS doens't need the same type of customization as TOW, but something inbetween could be good (there are A LOT of games with less customization than TOW that are perfectly fun to play with "your dudes", soe of them even won some wargaming awards too... but that's just an anecdote).

About the lethalityand replacement units argument about AoS, I must disagree.

I don't think customisation is needed at all to have an army that you can call "your dudes". Just create them some lore and unique painting and it would be enough.

[Beliman]

Just now, Ejecutor said:

I don't think customisation is needed at all to have an army that you can call "your dudes". Just create them some lore and unique painting and it would be enough.

That's up to debate. For some people, pretty sure it will not matter. For others people, it's a requirement.

[Tonhel]

31 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

I don't think customisation is needed at all to have an army that you can call "your dudes". Just create them some lore and unique painting and it would be enough.

No, the ability to give your characters magic items, gifts of the gods, runes, forest spites, honours, different spell lores and etc... all add to the immersion. It really enhances how you can personalise your characters / army. You can really make it your own. It adds to the story of your army and it certainly adds to the modelling/painting part of the hobby.

Ofcourse there are some uber builds that will taken a lot, but still you still have the choice, even if it is sometimes the illusion of choice.

AoS is in that regard very bland. It's almost mandotary to take named heroes for certain armies, the basic spell lores are almost useless compared to the manifestations. The spell lores are small and you mostly have only 1 lore with 3 spells to chose from. The artefacts are laughable. It will become boring pretty fast.

That said AoS 4th is certainly a cool game, but there is imo not much more to it. Hopefully the battletomes will give a lot more.

In comparison TOW is much more characterful/flavourful. Each Arcane journal enhances a core faction immensly. There is so much more freedom to customize your army. Certainly when you play in a casual enviremont, were the experience is atleast as important than winning. In the future we will see campaign books which will even give more options and freedom. 

Edited August 5 by Tonhel

[Beliman]

53 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

AoS is in that regard very bland. It's almost mandotary to take named heroes for certain armies, the basic spell lores are almost useless compared to the manifestations. The spell lores are small and you mostly have only 1 lore with 3 spells to chose from. The artefacts are laughable. It will become boring pretty fast.

Just to clarify. Faction Packs are bland, something completely expected. Appart from a few armies that doesn't ahve a lot of tools to play (no magic, prayers, manifestations, etc...), the players doesn't have a lot of tools in the list-building phase, but they have a lot to chose in the middle of the game.

[Sarouan]

TBH, customisation doesn't especially have to do with rules. Background matters too.

When Warhammer Battle was still around, it was a bit of the same problem. I mean, if your army comes from Altdorf, you can't really paint your miniatures pink and black then say it's the honor guard of the Emperor. It doesn't fit the existing background.

It was always possible to say "well my army comes from a colony", but the Old World is actually quite "small" in comparison to AoS in matters of space where you can put your custom army. That's why it's easier in AoS (or in 40k, just because the universe is so damn huge and we're talking about whole unknown stellar systems). For example, there's no real room for another whole new kingdom to exist in Old World. Even a new town in the Empire is quite difficult, because the map is actually detailed.

It's really not a new problematic. It's been around for decades, and one of the reasons why AoS was made so "huge and empty" in the beginning.

Edited August 5 by Sarouan

[JackStreicher]

17 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

It was always possible to say "well my army comes from a colony", but the Old World is actually quite "small" in comparison to AoS in matters of space where you can put your custom army. That's why it's easier in AoS (or in 40k, just because the universe is so damn huge and we're talking about whole unknown stellar systems). For example, there's no real room for another whole new kingdom to exist in Old World. Even a new town in the Empire is quite difficult, because the map is actually detailed.

I get your point but TOW map doesn’t have every minor city or castle drawn in (some rivers don’t have names).

 

imo to make a unit your own it needs more than a different paintjob. If I want to make an helbard Marshal there’s no way the rules would support different weapon options which breaks immersion. The same goes for actual units.

[Tonhel]

56 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Just to clarify. Faction Packs are bland, something completely expected. Appart from a few armies that doesn't ahve a lot of tools to play (no magic, prayers, manifestations, etc...), the players doesn't have a lot of tools in the list-building phase, but they have a lot to chose in the middle of the game.

Yes, AoS as a game is imo much better than the previous versions and it's great to play. But everything before playing the game. the actual hobby stuff is imo not as engaging. The mini's are ofcourse beautiful. But the actual list building, the creation of your army, your heroes and etc isn't really engaging with AoS. It think this will improve massively with the battletomes, but I fear that this will create problems with the other AoS factions that are stuck with their faction packs for a long time.

 

17 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

TBH, customisation doesn't especially have to do with rules. Background matters too.

When Warhammer Battle was still around, it was a bit of the same problem. I mean, if your army comes from Altdorf, you can't really paint your miniatures pink and black then say it's the honor guard of the Emperor. It doesn't fit the existing background.

It was always possible to say "well my army comes from a colony", but the Old World is actually quite "small" in comparison to AoS in matters of space where you can put your custom army. That's why it's easier in AoS (or in 40k, just because the universe is so damn huge and we're talking about whole unknown stellar systems). For example, there's no real room for another whole new kingdom to exist in Old World. Even a new town in the Empire is quite difficult, because the map is actually detailed.

It's really not a new problematic. It's been around for decades, and one of the reasons why AoS was made so "huge and empty" in the beginning.

I get your point, but still there is so much freedom.

I.e for my 1000 point Bretonnian army. I created the barony of Mercatoux which is situated in the dukedom of Bordeleaux. I have complete freedom with my Barony and when my armies grow I will integrate maybe another barony and lastly the duke will be added. Even when the duke is an existing character in the background, I can still equip him as I want. I can create his personality and how he is equiped and then I haven't touched the Border princes. . Imo, TOW has more creative freedom, because with AoS while the world / universe is immense. You still have to work with the factions GW releases and those have almost zero freedom. So infact you are more limited.

With TOW we already have  9 core factions and 4 of those core factions already have 2 armies of infamy (that drastically change their playstyle) each. So when every core faction got its Arcane journal we already have 27 different playstyles, than add campaign books, mercenaries, maybe halflings and etc... Imo, TOW is the game with the huge creative freedom and not AoS as that one only has the illusion of it. 😉 

[Ejecutor]

3 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

Yes, AoS as a game is imo much better than the previous versions and it's great to play. But everything before playing the game. the actual hobby stuff is imo not as engaging. The mini's are ofcourse beautiful. But the actual list building, the creation of your army, your heroes and etc isn't really engaging with AoS. It think this will improve massively with the battletomes, but I fear that this will create problems with the other AoS factions that are stuck with their faction packs for a long time.

 

I get your point, but still there is so much freedom.

I.e for my 1000 point Bretonnian army. I created the barony of Mercatoux which is situated in the dukedom of Bordeleaux. I have complete freedom with my Barony and when my armies grow I will integrate maybe another barony and lastly the duke will be added. Even when the duke is an existing character in the background, I can still equip him as I want. I can create his personality and how he is equiped and then I haven't touched the Border princes. . Imo, TOW has more creative freedom, because with AoS while the world / universe is immense. You still have to work with the factions GW releases and those have almost zero freedom. So infact you are more limited.

With TOW we already have  9 core factions and 4 of those core factions already have 2 armies of infamy (that drastically change their playstyle) each. So when every core faction got its Arcane journal we already have 27 different playstyles, than add campaign books, mercenaries, maybe halflings and etc... Imo, TOW is the game with the huge creative freedom and not AoS as that one only has the illusion of it. 😉 

IMO, it is not the fact that X or Y game is better or more customisable, it is a problem in the mind of the players.

ToW lets you play flavourful stuff like fillers, but why can't you do that with your AoS army?

Here is an example:



There's nothing stopping you from playing this instead of a Steelhelm.

Or convert a particular mini to make it your own version:



Even just some smaller details would make them "your dudes", IMO:



And even building something completely outside of the warscrolls. I've got the new Bretonnian on Pegasus to convert it a bit and use it with my CoS.