Sception Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) was just about to post that video myself. A lot of things look better than I thought previously, mostly due to me reading things wrong. I like invocation a lot more now that I finally properly read it and realize it works on deathrattle/deadwalker heroes and expecially that it works in every hero phase, not just yours. I like the bonus movement hero trait a lot more now seeing and properly processing it. Still going through the rest EDIT: ooh, I like neferata a lot less with the scout move ability only applying to infantry. No scouting black knights with her. Vhordrai is much stronger than VLoZD, but he doesn't get traits or artefacts, and he cotsts 80 more points, so he should be. Edited July 10 by Sception 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) Terrorgheist gaping maw is naughty! Im torn between Cado and a regular vl. I don’t think too much of the traits or items but Cado got shafted with how his mortals work and a worse save than a regular vl. The +1 to cast, unbind and banish is pretty good though I suppose. Edited July 10 by El Syf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 lower armor on cado isn't surprising - the model isn't carrying a shield, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 I’m quite excited now alls been revealed, my lists are looking rather different to 3rd Ed too which is refreshing. Although I’m still trying to work Manfred and Vhordrai in one list with blood knights as well, Neferata may be a better option over Manfred though? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 a lot of the small vyrkos units look very neat and fun and techy. Doesn't change the fact that I still feel they should have been kicked to legends, but since they're here anyway it's nice that they look fun to play with. Ivya in particular still looks amazing as an anti-monster silver bullet, surprised the previous summary didn't find her to be worth going over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) Nagash-Mortis-Deadwalker mortal damage engine Nagash (general) 10 Dire Wolves 10 Dire Wolves Mortis Engine 40 Deadwalker Zombies 20 Deadwalker Zombies 20 Deadwalker Zombies battle formation; deathstench drove 2000 points even The Engine: nagash machine-gun fires his signature spell to deal d3 damage to every enemy unit wholly within 18" of his giant pie plate base, fully charging the Mortis Engine each turn, which then deals an additional 6 mortal damage to three of those units on a 3+ each. Deadwalker zombies stand between the engine and the enemy, dealing additional mortals as they die on a 6+, plus the formation lets up to 3 wolf/zombie units do extra mortals at the end of every turn (yours and your opponents) while shuffling around. Nagash fully brings back one of the units once per game, the rest bring back half the unit with a command point. Variants: Maybe combine the two 20 man deadwalkers into one 40 for extra chewwyness? They're as is to have more units to do the shuffle and to be able to amble towards unoccupied objectives. Maybe combine the dire wolves into one unit of 20? doing so gives a stronger (sorta) unit for this season's special retinue rules, plus another option of 40 wound unit that Nagash could fully revive. They're as they are again to have more units to do the deathstench shuffle with, and to be able to go after different objectives. Not sure if 40/20/20/10/10 is the ideal unit division or not. You'll be looking at 2 battalions no matter what you do.. However you split up the units, this should be a nightmare to fight for elite enemies especially - anything that relies on quality of attacks and defenses (high rend, high save) over shere quantity of damage output and wounds should struggle to get through 120 wounds of chaff (not counting recursion) before the damage engine absolutely chews them apart, especially with the chaff contributing even more mortal damage along the way. That said, there are several hoardbreaker type abilities in 4e (ie, roll a die for each model in the unit, take a mortal for each 5+ or whatever) that may be able to thin the hoard out before the engine can burn it all down. Edited July 10 by Sception 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 24 minutes ago, Sception said: Nagsh-Mortis-Deadwalker mortal damage engine Nagash (general) 10 Dire Wolves 10 Dire Wolves Mortis Engine 40 Deadwalker Zombies 20 Deadwalker Zombies 20 Deadwalker Zombies battle formation; deathstench drove 2000 points even The Engine: nagash machine-gun fires his signature spell to deal d3 damage to every enemy unit wholly within 18" of his giant pie plate base, fully charging the Mortis Engine each turn, which then deals an additional 6 mortal damage to three of those units on a 3+ each. Deadwalker zombies stand between the engine and the enemy, dealing additional mortals as they die on a 6+, plus the formation lets up to 3 wolf/zombie units do extra mortals at the end of every turn (yours and your opponents) while shuffling around. Nagash fully brings back one of the units once per game, the rest bring back half the unit with a command point. Variants: Maybe combine the two 20 man deadwalkers into one 40 for extra chewwyness? They're as is to have more units to do the shuffle and to be able to amble towards unoccupied objectives. Maybe combine the dire wolves into one unit of 20? doing so gives a stronger (sorta) army for Nagash's special retinue, plus a second option of 40 wound unit to fully revive. They're as they are again to have more shuffle units and to be able to go after different objectives. Not sure what's better there. Should be a nightmare to fight for any super elite enemies especially - anything that relies on quality of attacks and wounds (high save, high rend) over quantity of wounds and damage output should struggle to get through 120 wounds of chaff (not counting recursion) before the damage engine absolutely chews them apart, especially with the chaff contributing even more mortal damage along the way. This actually seems extremely strong. I would not be surprised if it becomes a tournament list like Nagash +80 skeletons in 2nd ed. Nagash was one of the first warscrolls we saw, so it was hard to appreciate how insane his spell casting and mortal wound output are compared to everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonhel Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 Lol, that’s extremely strong. Maybe my StD do need the mark of Tzeentch after all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) Don't forget that both Nagash and the Engine can cast the soulblight signature spell - adding even more mortals to the pile while also healing themselves. ..... As a less-op variant, you could trade Nagash for the Liche's hand - consolodating either the zombies into 2x40 or the wolves into 1x20 to fit all the deadwalkers into a single battalion under the mortis engine. The hand is 50 points less than Nagash, so you'll get the extra command point in round one. You trade nagash's 9 casts for arkhan's 3, which means at best you're only charging the mortis to 5 each battle round- though you might still get to six with 'unleash spell' on the opponent's turn. More likely you'll be looking at around 3 each turn when you factor in unbinds and failed casting rolls. The casts themselves are weaker without access to nagash's amazing signature spell, but in exchange you get two extra fast, flying hammers to play around with. Weaker overall, but you get to play the build in more casual context without your opponents having to face a literal god on the table. You also get to re-live the glory days of the gone-but-not-forgotten Legion of Sacrament. Edited July 10 by Sception Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketPropelledGrenade Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 I know this is the wrong place to say it, but if I never saw another zombie list again it would be too soon! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 39 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said: I know this is the wrong place to say it, but if I never saw another zombie list again it would be too soon! "Too soon," coming soon to a "now" near you! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechnoVampire Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 7 hours ago, El Syf said: I’m quite excited now alls been revealed, my lists are looking rather different to 3rd Ed too which is refreshing. Although I’m still trying to work Manfred and Vhordrai in one list with blood knights as well, Neferata may be a better option over Manfred though? I’m gonna try and make a list with Neffy, vhordrai and some blood knights… I think neffy is better than manny in this list as she has a better combat profile, the ability to one shot hero’s and her spell is excellent on blood knights. Manny is cool, but I don’t think his abilities have as much synergy, unless he’s interacting with the other units more. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leshoyadut Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 11 hours ago, Sception said: Nagash-Mortis-Deadwalker mortal damage engine Nagash (general) 10 Dire Wolves 10 Dire Wolves Mortis Engine 40 Deadwalker Zombies 20 Deadwalker Zombies 20 Deadwalker Zombies battle formation; deathstench drove 2000 points even The Engine: nagash machine-gun fires his signature spell to deal d3 damage to every enemy unit wholly within 18" of his giant pie plate base, fully charging the Mortis Engine each turn, which then deals an additional 6 mortal damage to three of those units on a 3+ each. Deadwalker zombies stand between the engine and the enemy, dealing additional mortals as they die on a 6+, plus the formation lets up to 3 wolf/zombie units do extra mortals at the end of every turn (yours and your opponents) while shuffling around. Nagash fully brings back one of the units once per game, the rest bring back half the unit with a command point. Variants: Maybe combine the two 20 man deadwalkers into one 40 for extra chewwyness? They're as is to have more units to do the shuffle and to be able to amble towards unoccupied objectives. Maybe combine the dire wolves into one unit of 20? doing so gives a stronger (sorta) unit for this season's special retinue rules, plus another option of 40 wound unit that Nagash could fully revive. They're as they are again to have more units to do the deathstench shuffle with, and to be able to go after different objectives. Not sure if 40/20/20/10/10 is the ideal unit division or not. You'll be looking at 2 battalions no matter what you do.. However you split up the units, this should be a nightmare to fight for elite enemies especially - anything that relies on quality of attacks and defenses (high rend, high save) over shere quantity of damage output and wounds should struggle to get through 120 wounds of chaff (not counting recursion) before the damage engine absolutely chews them apart, especially with the chaff contributing even more mortal damage along the way. That said, there are several hoardbreaker type abilities in 4e (ie, roll a die for each model in the unit, take a mortal for each 5+ or whatever) that may be able to thin the hoard out before the engine can burn it all down. I think it's also worth mentioning that you can cast endless spells super easily with this, as well. They cost nothing and you have plenty of casts per turn to get them off. But more importantly for this list, I think, is that they both add more replenishable wounds for your opponent to deal with and count as casts for your Mortis Engine. With ten spells a turn between the Mortis Engine itself and Nagash, you have plenty to work with. Edited July 11 by Leshoyadut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 oh, certainly. Choose whichever Manifestation lore seems best for adding more mortals, or for healing nagash & the mortis engine to keep them running. the soulblight spell lore's unlimited spell does both of those things, so nagash & the engine should both try to cast it whenever there's an enemy in range. looking at the seasonal retinue rules again, it's probably best to shift the 40 man zombie unit to nagash's retinue, and give them the bodyguard ability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 18 minutes ago, Sception said: Choose whichever Manifestation lore seems best for adding more mortals, or for healing nagash & the mortis engine to keep them running I think it's the pack with Burning Head, Jaws and Lifeswarm in it. Of course, you could always go thematic with one of the Shyish-themed packs, as well. I think the Nagash list might also want to consider Black Knights. They are also pretty high wounds now, but with a better save than zombies and actual offensive potential. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: I think the Nagash list might also want to consider Black Knights. They are also pretty high wounds now, but with a better save than zombies and actual offensive potential. Black Knights look great and you can definitely build a nagash list with them. Unfortunately, 5 black knights is more expensive than 10 dire wolves or 20 zombies, and there aren't any points spare in the list, so adding in a reinforced unit of 10 black knights will force you to trade out like 60 wounds of deadwalker, which will leave you with few enough zombies that the deathstench formation is probably no longer worth running, at which point you might be better off dropping /all/ of the zombies and rebuild with something else. Nagash, mortis, and one unit of 10 black knights is 1440, leaving 560 to work with. You could take 2x20 skeletons plus 5 more black knights, or 1x10 skeletons and 10 more black knights. I worry that's not enough units & bodies to effectively screen Nagash & the engine and occupy objectives. You could drop the mortis for an extra 240 points to work with, plus opening a spot for one of the heroes that more effectively supports deathrattle offense, but without the mortis we're not really talking about the same list. In the end, I think skipping deathrattle entirely and putting your remaining points entirely into zombies and dire wolves is going to serve the Nagash + Mortis concept best. I could easily be wrong though, if 4e armies are more compact in general due to the new battalion system then I might be overestimating just how many bodies you'll need on the table. Edited July 11 by Sception Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodorowski Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 On 7/11/2024 at 1:32 PM, Sception said: oh, certainly. Choose whichever Manifestation lore seems best for adding more mortals, or for healing nagash & the mortis engine to keep them running. the soulblight spell lore's unlimited spell does both of those things, so nagash & the engine should both try to cast it whenever there's an enemy in range. looking at the seasonal retinue rules again, it's probably best to shift the 40 man zombie unit to nagash's retinue, and give them the bodyguard ability. For Manifestations, I have been thinking on the Aetherwrought Machineries... It gives you a -1hit bubble for wizards (all SBGL heroes) and some offensive support with the swords and pendulum. What do you think about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, Frodorowski said: For Manifestations, I have been thinking on the Aetherwrought Machineries... It gives you a -1hit bubble for wizards (all SBGL heroes) and some offensive support with the swords and pendulum. What do you think about it? That one looks good for this army. the one with gnashing jaws and bug swarm also looks good. I'm partial to the one with the purple sun, but that's more for aesthetics and theme than any tangible mechanical reason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 2 minutes ago, Sception said: That one looks good for this army. the one with gnashing jaws and bug swarm also looks good. I'm partial to the one with the purple sun, but that's more for aesthetics and theme than any tangible mechanical reason. Purple sun itself is a pretty good reason. It's just a good spell. I have been looking at our hero options a bit more closely recently, and Gravelords are one of the few armies that gets bonus heroes that are wizards. You could run a Vyrkos list with Belladama, Radukar, Ivya and Torgilius and end up on 5 casts. +1 with Bacchanal of Blood if you want it (and the bonus on the charge will probably be relevant, too). Maybe this could be viewed as a way to run a high magic/deadwalker list that is a little less mean than Nagash+Mortis Engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Purple sun itself is a pretty good reason. It's just a good spell. I have been looking at our hero options a bit more closely recently, and Gravelords are one of the few armies that gets bonus heroes that are wizards. You could run a Vyrkos list with Belladama, Radukar, Ivya and Torgilius and end up on 5 casts. +1 with Bacchanal of Blood if you want it (and the bonus on the charge will probably be relevant, too). Maybe this could be viewed as a way to run a high magic/deadwalker list that is a little less mean than Nagash+Mortis Engine. Sounds good, especially since my alternative suggestion for a less mean version of the list - taking arkhan via the liche's hand ror, won't work. Which I should have realized right away because obviously Arkhan doesn't have the soulblight gravelords keyword and thus his spells won't power the engine. Whoops. trading nagash for the max vyrkos wizards pile (beladdamma - I hate that I can't just call her volga anymore because of ivya - little radukar, torgilius, and ivya) costs an extra detachment but saves 110 points. Enough to add a unit of fell bats (which are deadwalkers now, so they can do mortals via the deathstench battalion if they're still alive at the end of a turn where they're in combat, though you might trade deathstench for the vampire battalion to give +1 to your three vampire casters - torgillius and the engine don't benefit though), and, if you want, to trade the 20 wolves for 40 more zombies. Edited July 15 by Sception Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodorowski Posted July 29 Share Posted July 29 Do you know if it is a single list driving the good tournament results? Or the whole faction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 None of the videos I've seen talking about the results showed specific soulblight lists in detail, but they seemed to describe mostly just general good stuff lists, leaning into mobility with dire wolves and either or both of the cavalry units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 2 hours ago, Sception said: None of the videos I've seen talking about the results showed specific soulblight lists in detail, but they seemed to describe mostly just general good stuff lists, leaning into mobility with dire wolves and either or both of the cavalry units. That sounds kind of nice. I was worried it would be all Nagash, all the time. After getting more familiar with 4th ed, I think Soulblight gets a pretty nice boon from all Vampires also being wizards. In my other lists, I always feel like I have to make the conscious decision to get a few casts and unbind in there, but with Soulblight you just get them for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frodorowski Posted July 31 Share Posted July 31 On 7/30/2024 at 7:35 AM, Neil Arthur Hotep said: That sounds kind of nice. I was worried it would be all Nagash, all the time. After getting more familiar with 4th ed, I think Soulblight gets a pretty nice boon from all Vampires also being wizards. In my other lists, I always feel like I have to make the conscious decision to get a few casts and unbind in there, but with Soulblight you just get them for free. Yeah, I was also having this feeling of a top list. What I have seen is that Belladama and wolves are basic to have a scoring and mobile regiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted August 14 Share Posted August 14 Had my first game of the edition last Saturday, I was a lot more impressed with how everything flows then I thought I would be list was as follows: Vhordrai Cado Necromancer Not Krell 10 blood knights 20 grave guard 20 skeletons 10 skeletons Morbid conjuration endless spells I managed to get the win although it was a deflated victory, my dice rolling had been absolutely terrible most of the game when making attacks. Saves and everything else seemed pretty normal but my attack rolls were so bad. Speaking more generally the endless spells certainly provided distractions for my opponent but again did nowhere near the damage I’ve seen them do in battle reports online. Off of this game I’m happy they aren’t a points cost to take them. The honour guard rules are really useful and definitely helped my blood knights who along with Vhordrai sucked in 3/4 of my opponents army for a melee that lasted several turns although Vhordrai died in the end. I wouldn’t change anything about Vhordrai just very unlucky with my roles with him, blood knights I still feel are a little underwhelming with their basic profile. Cado I found to be exceptionally useful and may have been playing it wrong but with his own rule and bachenal of blood +2 to cast was very helpful, changing up between the other two abilities also helped me capture and keep an enemy objective too. Can’t really speak for the grave guard and wight king as they were on the far side of the battlefield and didn’t see action. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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