RocketPropelledGrenade Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Largely agreed with @Neil Arthur Hotep's assessment, except that I value +1 to charge more highly, as most charge bonuses are very limited this edition. Also helps with counter-charge. I'd rate the Wight King on Steed more highly as a result. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechnoVampire Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 (edited) It would be nice if they released new GG and black knight models, then our range would be complete! GG look likely after the rumour engine showing something that looked very like a great wight blade (perfect for their new 1 damage profile! 😆). I’ll probably try and run something in the vamp sub faction with some blood knights, vhordrai and neferata. Maybe a necro and some GG if I have the points, dogs if not. I’m not expecting it to be very competitive but might still allow me to play the way I like with some amount of synergy. Edited July 5 by TechnoVampire Typos 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketPropelledGrenade Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 I have 30 painted grave guard and would gladly replace them all with new sculpts if they were good enough. Sons of Velmorn suggests they would be. So that would be very welcome. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 my kneejerk instinct is not to rate skeleton warriors well. imo they don't hit enough harder than zombies or heal enough to make up for the fact that zombies will probably be way cheaper, and will have double the unit size. It really feels like skittles should have been unit size 20 in these rules.... However, that initial reaction might not be fair in a game without battleshock. I guess we'll see. On a more positive note, I do really like the changes to black knights. They finally feel like the mounted grave guard they were supposed to be all along. Nef + 30 black knights should ansolutely be a thing. Something to be said for a speedy dead army in general. Direwolves for chaff, mix of black and blood knights for damage. for synergistic heroes/invocation enablers you've got vlozd, mounted wight king, belladamma, neferata, etc. Play the typical undead horde + some hammers game, only everything's super fast instead of super slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketPropelledGrenade Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 Yeah, I think Grave Guard and Black Knights both got solid warscrolls. Grave Guard don't hit like they used to, but can still take good buffs and "dependable bodyguard unit" versus "unreliable hammer" is probably a better role. Black Knights are just a straight upgrade from low-grade chaff to a fast medium-weight unit we didn't have before. The only downside is that with Dire Wolves getting Beast and Black Knights likely going up in points with the glow up, we might struggle at fast objective grabbing in the early game. But that's a perfectly fine weakness for a long-game attrition army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 5 Share Posted July 5 1 hour ago, Sception said: It really feels like skittles should have been unit size 20 in these rules.... From what I have seen, 10 models, 2 attacks 4/4/1/1 puts skeletons into the category of "not good, but maybe worth buffing" in 4th ed. A lot of units are running around with similar profiles right now. You don't get the extra rend in Deathmarch when grinding with them, but I think they could be good depending on points. They are likely still the cheapest screen in the army. Remains to be seen if reinforcing them makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 Slightly niche question but do we know if crimson court are still a thing? I’ve always been quite fond of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boar Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 12 minutes ago, El Syf said: Slightly niche question but do we know if crimson court are still a thing? I’ve always been quite fond of them. All Underworld warbands were retired for AoS 4.0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 1 minute ago, Boar said: All Underworld warbands were retired for AoS 4.0 Let's see if there are legend rules. Otherwise, they are at least cool VLord proxies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 Has there been any indication 4th Ed tomes may be more expansive then the indexes? I know custodes players in 40k would rather have their index back but by and large codexes and battletomes are always better right? It seems this edition is very fixated on being clear and precise at the expense of theme and character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 1 minute ago, El Syf said: Has there been any indication 4th Ed tomes may be more expansive then the indexes? I know custodes players in 40k would rather have their index back but by and large codexes and battletomes are always better right? It seems this edition is very fixated on being clear and precise at the expense of theme and character. We havr to wait for the first battletomes to get an indication. This is speculation, but personally I would not expect battletomes to put back in rules that go against the basic design of 4th like vampire bloodlines. Definitely no battle tactics. I would expect them to add more variety to what is already there: Battle formations, heroic traits, artifacts, spell lores, etc. I think that would be nice: Battletome-havers get more choice, but don't get free power boosts without opportunity cost compared to Index players. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketPropelledGrenade Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 4 hours ago, El Syf said: Has there been any indication 4th Ed tomes may be more expansive then the indexes? I know custodes players in 40k would rather have their index back but by and large codexes and battletomes are always better right? It seems this edition is very fixated on being clear and precise at the expense of theme and character. First off, the Custodes codex is probably the worst single book in 10e 40k, so it's not a good example. But even with that factored in, people's preference for the index are not based in theme and character, they're based in the Codex's performance/effectiveness. The codex still came with some cool new flavor and lots of additional options, they just weren't well implemented (at first--there have been balance changes to both Custodes and the core rules that vastly improved how the codex functions). That said, I agree again with Neil that we'll have to wait and see. My guess would be we see some more options and flavor, but maintain the general approach to design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 (edited) 20 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: From what I have seen, 10 models, 2 attacks 4/4/1/1 puts skeletons into the category of "not good, but maybe worth buffing" in 4th ed. A lot of units are running around with similar profiles right now. from the translation they're 2 attacks 4/4/-/1, no built in rend. If they do have built in rend then I'll feel a bit better about them. But if they only have rend if you burn your battle formation and charge and outnumber then they feel a lot more like pure chaff, in which case I think zombies will probably be better at that job. We'll see though. Not a huge complaint either way - having multiple units occupying the same chaff infantry role where one is just kind of better at it and the others not really worth taking is a problem, sure, but its a problem this faction has had on and off all the way back to the Warhammer Armies: Undead days. Edited July 6 by Sception Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 There’s a bat rep on mini war gaming with soulblight, unless I missed it they don’t show the points values but must have used them to make the (presumably) 2k army! Seem to be able to fit a fair bit in still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leshoyadut Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 On 7/6/2024 at 10:31 AM, El Syf said: There’s a bat rep on mini war gaming with soulblight, unless I missed it they don’t show the points values but must have used them to make the (presumably) 2k army! Seem to be able to fit a fair bit in still. Season of War has been doing some 4E batreps and in the comments mentioned on at least one of them that they weren't allowed to show the points of things. I assume it's GW being weird about giving too much info away, possibly due to potential last minute changes as they're continuing to internally balance? I can dream. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 On 7/6/2024 at 7:09 PM, Sception said: from the translation they're 2 attacks 4/4/-/1, no built in rend. If they do have built in rend then I'll feel a bit better about them. But if they only have rend if you burn your battle formation and charge and outnumber then they feel a lot more like pure chaff, in which case I think zombies will probably be better at that job. We'll see though. Not a huge complaint either way - having multiple units occupying the same chaff infantry role where one is just kind of better at it and the others not really worth taking is a problem, sure, but its a problem this faction has had on and off all the way back to the Warhammer Armies: Undead days. I was assuming Deathmarch here as a base line, because that is what I am interested in building. I don't think this will be the best list, but I think it will be viable for casual play. Deathstench Drove looks pretty good, too, though. Getting the 4th ed 2+/d3 mortal damage roll for 3 Deadwalker units at the end of every turn seems pretty good. Definitely the most significant damage buffs Zombies can get, even if Direwolves are probably how you best make use of it (because they are fast enough to pick their engagements). In a mixed arms list, I think both of these subfactions are beat out by Crimson Bacchanal, though. In those lists, if you just want a screen, I think zombies win, since they occupy more space and have more wounds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/JjfchFCbtFUHZkZ1.pdf points are up! only checked the soulblight ones and my immediate reaction is maybe they’ve been rather lazy?! Blood knights 230 still, Nagash unchanged, Cado became more expensive for some reason as did a normal vampire. Vhordrai I think is more and Manfred less. I know we’ve had the translation but I’ll be interested to see the the warscrolls officially. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechnoVampire Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) Most of our stuff has gone up in points or stayed the same while getting worse warscrolls. For me: neffy + 50 blood knights up 20 necro up 40 dogs and GG down 10 It doesn’t make for an incredibly exciting start to a new edition. Edited July 8 by TechnoVampire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) On the other hand, blood knights cost less than chaos knights, and way less than morghasts. The comparison point isn't 3e SBGL, it's 4e everything else. Mortis Engines are heroes now, that's pretty exciting. I wonder if they'll also be wizards? Wizard 2 mortis engine has long been a dream. I've been considering rebasing mine to old world since they are necromancer hero mounts there, valid general/lord choices, and very good, but maybe AoS is trying to make them respectable too? Black Knights looking pretty good. Zombies probably solid as chaff at 150 for 20 given the general comparisons. The only supplemental hero in another hero's detachment options are Vyrkos stuff, and it's only a sub hero option for the Vyrkos bosses (Radukar, Belladamma) which feels very off. Nagash doesn't even have any sub hero options in Soulblight, and other minor heroes that seem like they would be sub-heroes otherwise (necromancer, wight kings) aren't. More strongly than ever before, I very much feel that Cursed City stuff should have been kicked to legends along with Underworlds, despite the fact that it makes up the majority of stuff I actually have painted. Having it in the main game faction roster is visibly displacing more generic (and player accessible) options that really should and I'm confident otherwise would have been there. It's not like they're even trying very hard to make Cursed City units viable anyway. Notably Kosargi and Bloodborn still can't be reinforced. Mixed feelings overall. I don't hate it or feel down looking at it, but it doesn't raise my hype or reduce my desire to jump ship as soon as I have enough stuff painted for another undead faction. Edited July 8 by Sception 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leshoyadut Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Pretty notably for me, while Neferata went up by 50 points, VLOZD went down by 80 points, Skeletons by 10, and Grave Guard by 10, plus endless spells (which I usually had one of) don't cost anything anymore. I really like Deathrattle with a few elite vampire things, so this works out pretty nicely for me. While I probably wouldn't use the same list, I could use the same list I did before basically without changes. Definitely will be changing things, but it's nice to know that I shouldn't have to sacrifice the number of bodies on the field that I enjoy with my horde army. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) The endless spells seem quite strong in based on a battle repot I watched, as in over the top strong. Even the player using them seemed to think they were a bit mad. Edited July 8 by El Syf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketPropelledGrenade Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 8 hours ago, Leshoyadut said: Pretty notably for me, while Neferata went up by 50 points, VLOZD went down by 80 points, Skeletons by 10, and Grave Guard by 10, plus endless spells (which I usually had one of) don't cost anything anymore. I really like Deathrattle with a few elite vampire things, so this works out pretty nicely for me. While I probably wouldn't use the same list, I could use the same list I did before basically without changes. Definitely will be changing things, but it's nice to know that I shouldn't have to sacrifice the number of bodies on the field that I enjoy with my horde army. Yeah, I also tend to like elite vampires plus Deathrattle, so I'm pretty happy with where things landed. Did a quick brainstorm list when the points first hit and came up with the following: Neffy (general) 460 -Blood Knights 230 VLoZD 400 -Black Knights 160 -Black Knights 160 -Vargheists 160 Necromancer 140 -Reinforced Grave Guard 300 Total points 1980, 3 drops. Seems pretty decent, although of course needs some reps to test and maybe refine. If I can't do a hobby speedrun of the the S2D list I am suddenly close to having 2000 on, will likely bring this to NOVA. EDIT: I think I actually goofed by 30 points and this is not quite legal. Darn. Edited July 9 by RocketPropelledGrenade 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leshoyadut Posted July 9 Share Posted July 9 My first pass at an army, though I'm not sure how the damage will do with so many Deathrattle Skeletons. Otherwise pretty close to yours, @RocketPropelledGrenade. Bacchanal of Blood Reg 1 -Neferata (General) 460 -Blood Knights 230 Reg 2 -VLOZD (Reroll charges, orb of enchantments) 400 -20 Skeletons 200 -20 Skeletons 200 Reg 3 -Wight King 150 -20 Grave Guard 300 Total: 1940/2000, 3 drops. 110 health total, and I like the WK+GG combo. Not sure how I feel about only two wizards (3 spells/unbinds a turn), but I'll give it a go and see how it pans out. Only having three spells to cast (plus manifestations) will probably make it feel easier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechnoVampire Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 (edited) On 7/9/2024 at 4:30 AM, Leshoyadut said: My first pass at an army, though I'm not sure how the damage will do with so many Deathrattle Skeletons. Otherwise pretty close to yours, @RocketPropelledGrenade. Bacchanal of Blood Reg 1 -Neferata (General) 460 -Blood Knights 230 Reg 2 -VLOZD (Reroll charges, orb of enchantments) 400 -20 Skeletons 200 -20 Skeletons 200 Reg 3 -Wight King 150 -20 Grave Guard 300 Total: 1940/2000, 3 drops. 110 health total, and I like the WK+GG combo. Not sure how I feel about only two wizards (3 spells/unbinds a turn), but I'll give it a go and see how it pans out. Only having three spells to cast (plus manifestations) will probably make it feel easier. I’d be very tempted to swap wight king for necro paired with GG… especially if you want more casting? Edited July 10 by TechnoVampire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Syf Posted July 10 Share Posted July 10 Honest wargamer with full faction pack rundown. Vhordrai certainly seems a ton better than a regular Vlozd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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