General Chat Thread

[PraetorDragoon]

13 minutes ago, Grungnisson said:

Gosh... I'm looking at that Nagash warscroll (in Nighthaunt at the moment), and am wondring:

- where are all those spells he's supposed to be slapping left, right, front, and centre, and

- what else is he supposed to do, because it definitely ain't no fightin'

Must be the HoD I guess, but for 880 points, that's a lot of the army.

I hope you like Shademist.

[Sception]

He can cast his own spell multiple times in the same phase.  So each of your hero phases he'll cast any of your manifestations that aren't currently on the table, then he'll cast any of your three faction lore spells that are in range, and then he'll chain cast his signature spell until he either runs out of casts or runs out of units (friendly or enemy) wholly within 18" of his giant base.

The other thing he'll do is give you a unbind attempt on every spell the enemy army casts (because they won't have more than nine).  Those unbinds might fail now that he doesn't get a bonus to them (good change imo, playing a casty army against nagash wasn't fun at all), but you always at least get to try.

The other thing he does is actually fightin.  He generally wants to avoid other big monster heroes (how nice then that hand of dust means they also generally want to avoid him), but he's happy to throw some melee damage into units already tied up in combat with your chaff.

And the last big thing that Nagash does is bring back an entire dead unit once per game for free.  That's a huge deal, significantly offsetting his otherwise staggering points cost.  Nighthaunt admittedly aren't the undead faction best able to take advantage of this, but even so the ability to hurl 300 points of harridans or revenants at your opponent and then, after they've died, bring all 300 points of them back to do it again at least ~should~ be a pretty big deal, though admittedly I haven't actually seen the revenant or harridan warscrolls yet.

All that together and, yeah, I do think we're going to see Nagash on at least a few competitive tables in 4e.  That said, I'm not sure we'll see him with Nighthaunt specifically, or OBR for that matter.  He seems strongest in FEC, where he chain-casts himself up to six noble deed points and starts generating feeding frenzy from your first hero phase, or in Soulblight, where his synergy with the new mortis engine is kind of terrifying.

EDIT: On the other hand (of dust), Nighthaunt does have cheapish units to screen Nagash that are themselves fairly fast and flying, letting ghost armies take more advantage of Nagash's mobility.  There might be something there, I just haven't seen the full Nighthaunt rules yet to look for any specific synergies for him.

Edited July 11 by Sception

[PraetorDragoon]

Why the heck do we have an unlimted tag for spells if we have to write out "You can cast this spell multiple times" in the spell description anyway?

[Sception]

Just now, PraetorDragoon said:

Why the heck do we have an unlimted tag for spells if we have to write out "You can cast this spell multiple times" in the spell description anyway?

'unliited' means multiple casters can attempt to cast it in the same phase.  It does NOT mean the same caster can attempt to cast that spell multiple times in the same phase.

[PraetorDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Sception said:

'unliited' means multiple casters can attempt to cast it in the same phase.  It does NOT mean the same caster can attempt to cast that spell multiple times in the same phase.

I wonder how many people will misplay that. 

I know my group will.

[Grungnisson]

18 minutes ago, ScionOfOssia said:

3 Spells from the lore. 3 Manifestations. Shotgun 3 Invocations. Worst case, fire off your lore spells and then 6 Invocations. Plus a full resurrection for any non-Hero/unique unit is extremely good, particularly for OBR’s Morghasts. 

Ah yes, I forgot the core Manifestations. 

I see the ressurrect thing, but to be honest, I think I preferred the partial heal to multiple units and more than once. And I'm speaking for myself, where I only play NH and SBGL in Death.

BUT, I do like the new HoD. No limit range, and no rolling. That's nice.

[ScionOfOssia]

Just now, Grungnisson said:

Ah yes, I forgot the core Manifestations. 

I see the ressurrect thing, but to be honest, I think I preferred the partial heal to multiple units and more than once. And I'm speaking for myself, where I only play NH and SBGL in Death.

BUT, I do like the new HoD. No limit range, and no rolling. That's nice.

It’s either a resurrect or give them a 5+ Ward. 

[Grungnisson]

21 minutes ago, PraetorDragoon said:

I hope you like Shademist.

He can only cast it once. I believe Unlimited means other wizards can also cast it in the same turn.

[Grungnisson]

21 minutes ago, Sception said:

He can cast his own spell multiple times in the same phase.  So each of your hero phases he'll cast any of your manifestations that aren't currently on the table, then he'll cast any of your three faction lore spells that are in range, and then he'll chain cast his signature spell until he either runs out of casts or runs out of units (friendly or enemy) wholly within 18" of his giant base.

The other thing he'll do is give you a unbind attempt on every spell the enemy army casts (because they won't have more than nine).  Those unbinds might fail now that he doesn't get a bonus to them (good change imo, playing a casty army against nagash wasn't fun at all), but you always at least get to try.

The other thing he does is actually fightin.  He generally wants to avoid other big monster heroes (how nice then that hand of dust means they also generally want to avoid him), but he's happy to throw some melee damage into units already tied up in combat with your chaff.

And the last big thing that Nagash does is bring back an entire dead unit once per game for free.  That's a huge deal, significantly offsetting his otherwise staggering points cost.  Nighthaunt admittedly aren't the undead faction best able to take advantage of this, but even so the ability to hurl 300 points of harridans or revenants at your opponent and then, after they've died, bring all 300 points of them back to do it again at least ~should~ be a pretty big deal, though admittedly I haven't actually seen the revenant or harridan warscrolls yet.

All that together and, yeah, I do think we're going to see Nagash on at least a few competitive tables in 4e.  That said, I'm not sure we'll see him with Nighthaunt specifically, or OBR for that matter.  He seems strongest in FEC, where he chain-casts himself up to six noble deed points and starts generating feeding frenzy from your first hero phase, or in Soulblight, where his synergy with the new mortis engine is kind of terrifying.

EDIT: On the other hand (of dust), Nighthaunt does have cheapish units to screen Nagash that are themselves fairly fast and flying, letting ghost armies take more advantage of Nagash's mobility.  There might be something there, I just haven't seen the full Nighthaunt rules yet to look for any specific synergies for him.

I'm not saying he's bad, but there's lot of flavour gone and potentially, some heft, too. Seeing how points for other units on average went up, I simply don't think he's doing enough to take out such abig chunk out of your list. But we'll see how it goes, once the games start rolling.

[Sception]

20 minutes ago, PraetorDragoon said:

I wonder how many people will misplay that. 

I know my group will.

Many.  It's a confusing rule.  It really SHOULD have worked the other way, where unlimited just means unlimited.  They're already have to design unlimited spells to not be OP when spammed by multiple casters, the threat of spamming by the same caster shouldn't be meaningfully different...

Except then you remember Nagash.  Soulblight's unlimited spell does a few mortal wounds to an enemy unit then heals the caster.  Nagash healing to full every hero phase is probably a bad idea.

Still, that's a pretty straight forward niche case to account for.

[Sception]

22 minutes ago, Grungnisson said:

I'm not saying he's bad, but there's lot of flavour gone and potentially, some heft, too. Seeing how points for other units on average went up, I simply don't think he's doing enough to take out such abig chunk out of your list. But we'll see how it goes, once the games start rolling.

Huh.  I mean, in my opinion this is the best Nagash warscroll we've seen in AoS, in terms of capturing the feel of a literal god of (un)death on the table while still being minimally confusing, not so op as to be game breaking (outside of maybe that combo with the mortis engine).  But taste is subjective.

He's maybe a bit overpriced if you aren't exploiting some silly combo, but it's a brand new edition, there's bound to be points in need of adjusting.  The full unit revive in particular is a huge, game changing, truely 'godly' ability, one theoretically worth as many as 540 points just in itself (in obr reviving 4 morghasts - though morghasts themselves are probably priced too high), so I think it's perfectly reasonable to start his points higher than the devs thought it might need to be with the plan to bring them down over time until they reach something reasonable.  Better to be overly cautious, right?

right?

But then they printed the mortis engine, and suddenly nagash & the engine together are putting out like 20 mortals a turn from behind a wall of 120 wounds of zombies & dire wolves (with a 5++ thanks to nagash) with the zombies dealing even more mortals as they die, and both the zombies and the wolves dealing more mortals at the end end of every turn with their battle formation.  And don't forget the recursion - invocation with mortis bonus every turn, nagash brings back 40 zombies once per game, every other unit comes back at half strength for a command point.

And they said armies would deal /less/ mortal damage in 4th edition.

Whoops!

Edited July 11 by Sception

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

They're already have to design unlimited spells to not be OP when spammed by multiple casters, the threat of spamming by the same caster shouldn't be meaningfully different...

It is way more punishing for armies to go wide with casting than to go tall in 4th. I was looking into running a wizard-heavy CoS list, and it basically seems impossible because they only get 1 cast wizards that murder your drops.

So maybe the current Unlimited rule is a safeguard to prevent the spell doms from getting too overly dominant.

[Sabush]

Is it just for me that the warhammer webstore looks completely different?
It's much more like the old one used to be.

To be honest, I much prefer this!

[Ejecutor]

22 minutes ago, Sabush said:

Is it just for me that the warhammer webstore looks completely different?
It's much more like the old one used to be.

To be honest, I much prefer this!

Not completely different, they just tweaked the menu. I guess they listen to the feedback.

[Sabush]

10 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

Not completely different, they just tweaked the menu. I guess they listen to the feedback.

Completely different might have been an exaggeration. But it’s more than just the menu though?

The list of items has several columns and not just one (on desktop). I can more easily flip through the images when I browse an item. Just a few things I noticed.

Edited July 11 by Sabush

[Ejecutor]

1 minute ago, Sabush said:

Completely different might have been an exaggeration. But it’s more than just the menu though?

The list of items has several columns and not just one. I can more easily flip through the images when I browse an item. Just a few things I noticed.

Maybe it is something device-related. The menu is the only thing I noticed on a 27'' screen.

[FFJump]

58 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

Not completely different, they just tweaked the menu. I guess they listen to the feedback.

They actually tweaked it from yesterday too. Yesterday had Horus Heresy and The Old World listed right next to 40k and AoS. Today that's gone. Wonder if the other way was too much text on the screen, but I did actually prefer it that way.

[Ejecutor]

Just now, FFJump said:

They actually tweaked it from yesterday too. Yesterday had Horus Heresy and The Old World listed right next to 40k and AoS. Today that's gone. Wonder if the other way was too much text on the screen, but I did actually prefer it that way.

Yeah. If 'New' was there as well, it would be too much text.

[Howdyhedberg]

Is it only me, or does Nagash feel like a way better wizard compared to Teclis this edition?

I guess he got really mad after broken realms. 

[brocktoon]

Thumbing through these more extensively now. Reiterating concerns about the smoothing over of some of the Age of Sigmar weirdness that drew me through the "they killed WFB oh no" doldrums and made me fall in love with the game. The GUO simplifying meaningful weapon choices into "Colossal Blight Weapons" for the sake of squeezing everything into a single page hurts my heart. I get it: they (and most players) want a streamlined game with an eye toward balanced competition and GW seem to now be fine putting the complicated old school design ethos into Heresy and now TOW. But, man, give me some edge cases for unpredictability and tradeoffs at the list building level. Let me customize and chance something outside the meta at the individual model/unit level.

Maybe that stuff comes back with the army books but I wouldn't bet on it.

Edited July 11 by brocktoon

[Sception]

I mean, they're also putting out full faction rules for every faction in the game at once.  We might see the devs be more willing to write different weapon profiles and other more fiddly rules back into the system once they're working on individual battletomes again.  Probably not the first few - those would have been in development with the indexes, but like once we get a year or so out from 4e's launch.

[JackStreicher]

I actually like that many weapons were baked into one: No more feel bad for building „the wrong“ option.

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

7 hours ago, brocktoon said:

Thumbing through these more extensively now. Reiterating concerns about the smoothing over of some of the Age of Sigmar weirdness that drew me through the "they killed WFB oh no" doldrums and made me fall in love with the game. The GUO simplifying meaningful weapon choices into "Colossal Blight Weapons" for the sake of squeezing everything into a single page hurts my heart. I get it: they (and most players) want a streamlined game with an eye toward balanced competition and GW seem to now be fine putting the complicated old school design ethos into Heresy and now TOW. But, man, give me some edge cases for unpredictability and tradeoffs at the list building level. Let me customize and chance something outside the meta at the individual model/unit level.

Maybe that stuff comes back with the army books but I wouldn't bet on it.

Yeah, but now we can arm our models with what looks cool, rather than what's tactically the best option. I definitely prefer that. 

[Grimrock]

30 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I actually like that many weapons were baked into one: No more feel bad for building „the wrong“ option.

Yeah I'll take this any day. So much better than having my $200 model that I spent 20+ hours painting suddenly be a paperweight for a whole edition because his weapon loadout was good last edition and now needs to be nerfed into oblivion to 'encourage' me to buy another one. I can see it's a bit more boring at the list building level but I think it opens up so much at the hobby/customer friendly levels that it more than balances out. 

[Ejecutor]

30 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

Yeah I'll take this any day. So much better than having my $200 model that I spent 20+ hours painting suddenly be a paperweight for a whole edition because his weapon loadout was good last edition and now needs to be nerfed into oblivion to 'encourage' me to buy another one. I can see it's a bit more boring at the list building level but I think it opens up so much at the hobby/customer friendly levels that it more than balances out. 

I don't find this that problematic. In my experience, it is as easy as telling your opponent: "This guy with a two-handed axe it is using a two-handed maze instead".