General Chat Thread

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

10 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

So now that the order scrolls are out, what are people's thoughts? I don't know enough about order in 3rd edition to compare, do people generally feel that their armies have been toned down a bit? Significantly? Or do things feel similar or even stronger than they were?

For the Cities units that I played in 3rd edition, it's a mixed bag. Some of the more abusable stuff from last edition got reined in, but there also a bunch of new tools that look powerful. Everything definitely seems a lot more focused.

The new list building restrictions are real. It has become much harder to just run goodstuff and hope for the best. I also find myself a lot more points starved.

It seems to me that just splashing in a bunch of wizards has become much harder, as they seem to almost always be an extra drop and seem to unlock only basic units. I guess that's the counter-balance to free endless spells: You won't have anyone to cast them without cutting corners elsewhere.

I want to try running a list that goes to a million drops and is full of auxiliaries some time, just to see if the extra freedom could possibly be worth losing turn priority and giving your opponent 5 free command points. I almost think it might.

[Boingrot Bouncer]

Yeah, if you want lots of spell you probably will be high drop most times, unless you run kroak or similar. With a troggoths heavy list I can go down to two drop and still have skragrott for level 2 wizard, but otherwise you will need three-four drops or more to do some spells.

[ScionOfOssia]

43 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

So now that the order scrolls are out, what are people's thoughts? I don't know enough about order in 3rd edition to compare, do people generally feel that their armies have been toned down a bit? Significantly? Or do things feel similar or even stronger than they were?

Soulscryer, the Eidolons, and Volturnos seem good as Heroes. Tidecaster is 50/50 on actually being brought now because Soulscryer is cheaper and offer a more consistent benefit. The rest aren’t good (Mostly points-solvable except the Thrallmaster)

Units: Everything looks tempting except the turtle (Too expensive) and Thralls (10 points more nets you a Reaver and we’re not exactly lacking anti-Infantry and anti-Monster). 

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Grimrock said:

So now that the order scrolls are out, what are people's thoughts? I don't know enough about order in 3rd edition to compare, do people generally feel that their armies have been toned down a bit? Significantly? Or do things feel similar or even stronger than they were?

I only saw the Tzeentch unit costs/roster and 4th is dead to me. Just cancelled my Skaventide order. So many heroes got removed, no allies, so I can‘t use thousands of points/minis I‘ve collected. No thanks. 

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, MitGas said:

I only saw the Tzeentch unit costs/roster and 4th is dead to me. Just cancelled my Skaventide order. So many heroes got removed, no allies, so I can‘t use thousands of points/minis I‘ve collected. No thanks. 

Do you think it's because they're getting a new wave? Surely these aren't... extra removals past the Squattening they already announced? Right? 😢

[Ejecutor]

34 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

Do you think it's because they're getting a new wave? Surely these aren't... extra removals past the Squattening they already announced? Right? 😢

It is not like they are being fully removed, right? Just they are trying to order all the ranges in line with the restart. Said that, maybe they didn't pick the right faction for those minis...

[MitGas]

37 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

Do you think it's because they're getting a new wave? Surely these aren't... extra removals past the Squattening they already announced? Right? 😢

I don't get the feeling that Tzeentch will get a bigger wave anytime soon. Obviously I know less than Jon Snow though - but frankly we didn't need a wave before they kinda nuked DoT, now we actually really do.

And many of the decisions are simply bonkers or at least very, very stupid. Like talking at length in the preview about making chaos spawn something special and integral (I'm now convinced they'll have a crappy warscroll once again) but then not giving us access to the Mutalith. That is simply strange.

I mean I could probably play some of the S2D units with my friends or use them to represent a unit a Tzaangors and use those rules but this is suboptimal. It's not like those units were good ingame but it's about style. I don't want those boring armies where you only get one aspect. Chaos without mortals/beastmen and daemons all together isn't chaos, that's orderly. 

 

[Grimrock]

3 hours ago, MitGas said:

I only saw the Tzeentch unit costs/roster and 4th is dead to me. Just cancelled my Skaventide order. So many heroes got removed, no allies, so I can‘t use thousands of points/minis I‘ve collected. No thanks. 

Yeah I collect the 4 god marked armies and S2D. I originally branched out from khorne to the other chaos factions because I liked how things had a ton of crossover and you could stretch your collection with allies. Like you could get a Nurgle army started by using some marauders and a warshrine as a core until you had enought models to play pure Maggotkin. I'm a little ticked it's all just gone now.

[Grungnisson]

I am going through the rules and warscrolls and there's one thing that's starting to gnaw at me. The overhelming amount of Strike-First and Strike-Last effects in the game now. I know that with the sheer amount of units there's simply no chance of having so many different special rules and effects, but it really feels like this mechanic is being overused. I could easily see a situation, when in a game it's now going to be a bit of a pain, in each combat phase, to keep the track of all the units that have the S-F or S-L applied to them for that turn.

Or is it just me?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

23 minutes ago, Grungnisson said:

I am going through the rules and warscrolls and there's one thing that's starting to gnaw at me. The overhelming amount of Strike-First and Strike-Last effects in the game now. I know that with the sheer amount of units there's simply no chance of having so many different special rules and effects, but it really feels like this mechanic is being overused. I could easily see a situation, when in a game it's now going to be a bit of a pain, in each combat phase, to keep the track of all the units that have the S-F or S-L applied to them for that turn.

Or is it just me?

I think the concern about mental load is valid. I hope the number of things to remember went down in 4th overall, but we will have to see.

I also think the game looks like it is in a better spot to deal with "activation wars" right now than it was in 2nd ed, since buff potential seems lower and striking first/last is less of an absurd swing than it was before.

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

36 minutes ago, Grungnisson said:

I am going through the rules and warscrolls and there's one thing that's starting to gnaw at me. The overhelming amount of Strike-First and Strike-Last effects in the game now. I know that with the sheer amount of units there's simply no chance of having so many different special rules and effects, but it really feels like this mechanic is being overused. I could easily see a situation, when in a game it's now going to be a bit of a pain, in each combat phase, to keep the track of all the units that have the S-F or S-L applied to them for that turn.

Or is it just me?

No, definitely not just you. That's the sort of gamey bookkeeping that always challenges me. 

I think I'll be knocking up some sort of double-sided coin-like counters, marked with Strikes First and Strikes Last. Just to place beside the relevant units as and when it comes up. 

Edited July 10 by Big Kim Woof-Woof

[Tonhel]

29 minutes ago, Grungnisson said:

I am going through the rules and warscrolls and there's one thing that's starting to gnaw at me. The overhelming amount of Strike-First and Strike-Last effects in the game now. I know that with the sheer amount of units there's simply no chance of having so many different special rules and effects, but it really feels like this mechanic is being overused. I could easily see a situation, when in a game it's now going to be a bit of a pain, in each combat phase, to keep the track of all the units that have the S-F or S-L applied to them for that turn.

Or is it just me?

When listening to the StD overview it seems there are a lot of ways to S-F with your units. It certainly doesn’t feel as a rare ability.

[Ejecutor]

1 hour ago, Grungnisson said:

I am going through the rules and warscrolls and there's one thing that's starting to gnaw at me. The overhelming amount of Strike-First and Strike-Last effects in the game now. I know that with the sheer amount of units there's simply no chance of having so many different special rules and effects, but it really feels like this mechanic is being overused. I could easily see a situation, when in a game it's now going to be a bit of a pain, in each combat phase, to keep the track of all the units that have the S-F or S-L applied to them for that turn.

Or is it just me?

Weird idea, but maybe an app where you put both lists and track what you have left in the game could help to remind you of everything?

[brocktoon]

I'm quite happy to be wrong about many of my worries about this edition (I like being wrong). I don't know that this hits 2nd edition levels of happiness for me but I'm way happier about what I'm seeing than 3rd. The 3" combat range looks far smoother than I expected and the dreaded cognitive load reigned in nicely.

That said, anyone else worried at the 3 spells/3 enhancements per faction? One of the things that was always cool about fantasy games was the variety of spells and such in them. We'll see what happens with the army books when they come out, but I think 40k has suffered for the cull and worry the same is in the works here.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

19 minutes ago, brocktoon said:

I'm quite happy to be wrong about many of my worries about this edition (I like being wrong). I don't know that this hits 2nd edition levels of happiness for me but I'm way happier about what I'm seeing than 3rd. The 3" combat range looks far smoother than I expected and the dreaded cognitive load reigned in nicely.

That said, anyone else worried at the 3 spells/3 enhancements per faction? One of the things that was always cool about fantasy games was the variety of spells and such in them. We'll see what happens with the army books when they come out, but I think 40k has suffered for the cull and worry the same is in the works here.

I'm on record as preferring having a few options I am actually going to consider using over a lot of options that are 90% bloat.

But for 4th I am looking forward to the enhancement options being expanded a bit, as well. Spell lores in particular, I think having a choice between a few different packages would be really nice here. The index rules are at a good level of detail for my personal preference for now, but I think in a year or so I will want some new toys to play around with.

[Clan's Cynic]

Chaos Faction Packs are now live.

• Skaven
• Disciples of Tzeentch
• Maggotkin of Nurgle
• Hedonites of Slaanesh
• Blades of Khorne
• Slaves to Darkness
• Beasts of Chaos

[Boingrot Bouncer]

Well, it's better with three good spells than 6 spells were you almost always choose two. But for some factions like Seraphon, Tzeentch and perhaps if you run Teclis or Nagash the lack of spells might become an issue.

The same goes with enhancement, even with three it feels like (in the factions I have looked at and have some knowledge about) that it's one that you'll choose the majority of times, one for the rest and a third that is probably a choice you'll almost never will take.

[MitGas]

2 hours ago, Boingrot Bouncer said:

Well, it's better with three good spells than 6 spells were you almost always choose two. But for some factions like Seraphon, Tzeentch and perhaps if you run Teclis or Nagash the lack of spells might become an issue.

The same goes with enhancement, even with three it feels like (in the factions I have looked at and have some knowledge about) that it's one that you'll choose the majority of times, one for the rest and a third that is probably a choice you'll almost never will take.

The Tzeentch lores are an insult. At least this way the magister gets to survive cause who's gonna gamble now with his life for those spells? 😂

 

Edit: ooooh and those chaos spawn? they suuuuuuuuuuck, dudes and dudettes 

Edited July 10 by MitGas

[Howdyhedberg]

Where do you see the general manifestations? Is it in the generals handbook? (And not free rules then)

[Khadral]

I cannot find references to the generic manifestations (outside the preview article). Is there any references document? Are they available to every faction? I would have expected to  see some reference in the Battle profiles or faction packs

[Acrozatarim]

Generic manifestations are available to all factions, yeah. I think rules for them are part of the last release of documents on Monday?

[Beliman]

If anyone is curious about the first iteration of the fanmade Streets of Death Battlepack, it's here:

 

[Ejecutor]

Death Grand Alliance Faction Packs:

Faction Pack: Soulblight Gravelords

Faction Pack: Ossiarch Bonereapers

Faction Pack: Flesheater Courts

Faction Pack: Nighthaunt

Article: Free Death Faction Packs Downloads – Take Revenge on the Living - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

Edited July 11 by Ejecutor

[Grungnisson]

Gosh... I'm looking at that Nagash warscroll (in Nighthaunt at the moment), and am wondring:

- where are all those spells he's supposed to be slapping left, right, front, and centre, and

- what else is he supposed to do, because it definitely ain't no fightin'

Must be the HoD I guess, but for 880 points, that's a lot of the army.

[ScionOfOssia]

8 minutes ago, Grungnisson said:

Gosh... I'm looking at that Nagash warscroll (in Nighthaunt at the moment), and am wondring:

- where are all those spells he's supposed to be slapping left, right, front, and centre, and

- what else is he supposed to do, because it definitely ain't no fightin'

Must be the HoD I guess, but for 880 points, that's a lot of the army.

3 Spells from the lore. 3 Manifestations. Shotgun 3 Invocations. Worst case, fire off your lore spells and then 6 Invocations. Plus a full resurrection for any non-Hero/unique unit is extremely good, particularly for OBR’s Morghasts.