General Chat Thread

[woolf]

31 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Sorry it was 20, I was thinking 40 wounds.

Issues with endless spells:

• A wizard can cast any number a turn (up to their power level), which makes casters with multiple spells incredibly powerful
• Each wizard can only banish one manifestation per battle round
• Heroes are taxed incredibly heavily this edition due to regiments, and a lot of armies can't afford to bring many wizards
• Unbinding bonuses are incredibly rare, so even with casting bonuses being mostly limited its very difficult to shut them down with unbinds.
• You don't get an opportunity to banish an invocation cast in your turn, since your opponent uses the command after you have the opportunity to banish any invocations
• Endless spells are large and incredibly good at blocking space. Shackles is an 18" range that can be placed within 9", gravetide/palisade/jaws are huge, etc. You basically get to summon free chaff
• On top of being nigh busted in terms of space control they actually do useful stuff, and some do good damage
• They're not durable, but your screens and other small utility units will actually struggle to destroy one in combat.

 

yeah they should be capped or maybe made so they can't come back after killed or smth

[MitGas]

2 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

@MitGas, maybe something Tzeentchian?

Maybe the Sorcerer for S2D… DoT-stuff usually has pristine garments and this looks worn. But could be a ton of things, really. 🤔

[Dragon-knight77]

5 hours ago, Chikout said:

Finally got my Warhammer plus mini after weeks of wrangling with Japanese customer support and it’s the wrong ******* one. 
 

I’m slightly tempted to keep it as I haven’t painted a 40k model for about 10 years, but I do like the Vampire a lot more. 

 

Regarding endless spells, I’m really curious to see what they change to balance endless spells. There are lots of different ways they could adjust things. Not allowing them to summoned with a counter spell is one. They could also play around with casting values. An extreme option would be to say that if an endless spell is destroyed rather than banished, it can’t be summoned again. 

Sorry to hear that brother

[Beliman]

16 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Each wizard can only banish one manifestation per battle round

And remember that there are armies that can't use that ability becuase they don't have any priest or wizard, unless using allies or regiments of renown.

I'm a bit jealous about this Magic module, I just want an Engineering module that improves War Machines. I just want to play with cool stuff!

(Note: TOW dwards with an engineers guild-list and a bunch of new rules with a perfect time release must mean something) 

Edited July 24 by Beliman

[Ganigumo]

16 minutes ago, Beliman said:

And there are armies without priests or wizard on their rosters.

I'm a bit jealous about this Magic module, ai just want an Engineering module that improves War Machines. I just want to play with cool stuff!

(Note: TOW dwards with an engineers guild-list and a bunch of new rules with a perfect time release must mean something) 

I was less than excited to paint up my endless spells in preparation for the edition. I've never been too fond of them so needing to bring them to every game didn't appeal to me.

[Neverchosen]

I feel like Kharadron could have a really fun mage that uses artificial/scientific means of producing magic. It could be an expansion of the idea of bottled endless spells?

I imagine that you'd want to alter the casting mechanic to signify the difference in magical approaches. Like the Kharadorn Alchemist autocasts the spell but the casting value is considered really low so that these artificial spells are more easily unbound by a true magic user? Maybe even add a risk that when unbound the experiment goes wrong and the Alchemist suffers a wound. I don't think this feels very balanced as it makes one alchemist very weak but a bunch of them overly powerful. Or maybe have spells in Kharadron armies count as a resource and only a certain number of spells can be cast in total and tied to an optional item slot replacing a weapon profile?

Edited July 23 by Neverchosen

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

1 hour ago, Neverchosen said:

I feel like Kharadron could have a really fun mage that uses artificial/scientific means of producing magic. It could be an expansion of the idea of bottled endless spells?

Well, if Khorne can have wizards, anything's fair game! 

[ScionOfOssia]

Honestly I have no clue how Manifestations launched in this state. Somehow the Krondspine isn’t even the biggest offender, but the one I predicted would be (Morbid Conjuration) absolutely is. The biggest problem is the stranglehold it has on certain factions during listbuilding- The Idoneth pretty much are forced to run a Sea Eidolon if they don’t want to get blown out which leaves the Storm variation completely noncompetitive (Which Companion doesn’t help with either since their riders deal lackluster damage even with buffs). It’s essentially a situation where listbuilding can be summarized with a simple ethos: Cast Or Die. 

[Ragest]

10 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

I think they just need to put back some cost on them. It will help fill some formation gaps and will be easier to balance.

How you point a pack with 30 wounds with a 6++ save that debuffs -1 save, -2/-3", does around 10MWs and around 20 attacks and have a pair of pretty big bases to screen out AND all those stats can be refreshed every turn?

Endless are meta or dead, that stuff is unbalanceable.

[Mutton]

I'm a fan of a lot of things in 4th ed. Manifestations are not one of them.

I'll also say that some armies seem to have avoided the game's rebalancing and are still playing under 3rd edition stats and rules.

Edited July 23 by Mutton

[ScionOfOssia]

11 minutes ago, Mutton said:

I'm a fan of a lot of things in 4th ed. Manifestations are not one of them.

I'll also say that some armies seem to have avoided the game's rebalancing and are still playing under 3rd edition stats and rules.

You can just say “Slaves To Darkness and Lumineth”. 

[MitGas]

41 minutes ago, Ragest said:

How you point a pack with 30 wounds with a 6++ save that debuffs -1 save, -2/-3", does around 10MWs and around 20 attacks and have a pair of pretty big bases to screen out AND all those stats can be refreshed every turn?

Endless are meta or dead, that stuff is unbalanceable.

Yeah, manifestations seem awfully strong now, especially compared to the lore spells in the interim battletomes. Very few spells are worth casting over spamming manifestations, at least from my first (and second) impression but I haven‘t played a game yet. 
 

It‘s a strange game design choice for sure. What I find baffling though is how much better some of them are. Why would I not throw purple suns etc. around and use e.g. my own DoT manifestations that are really bad in comparison? 
 

I‘m quite sure these things will get reworked and rebalanced in time. 

[Ejecutor]

Could it be just a way to increase their sales and in a few months, with the first BTs, they nerf them hard?

[ScionOfOssia]

2 minutes ago, MitGas said:

at least from my first (and second) impression but I haven‘t played a game yet. 
 

Experience playing a game: The passive strength offered by them is by far in excess of the value offered by any unmodeled spell. They’re massively overtuned and should cost points at the bare minimum, especially given how most don’t actually have particularly high CVs when factoring in innate bonuses and Places of Power. Nagash alone can cast at +3 and Teclis (Gods smite him) can autocast them.

CV8 doesn’t even sound particularly high, and given the amount of +1s you can get, it’s actually even lower than that. 

[MitGas]

11 hours ago, ScionOfOssia said:

and Teclis (Gods smite him)

I like that. *weird lip licking*
 

Yeah, I don‘t really understand how they could fly under the radar like that, I haven‘t played 4th like I‘ve said, but it‘s clear from just looking at the rules  we‘ve gotten once or twice to see that they are off the charts. Hard to imagine how they could see them as balanced and think they make sense, especially if compared to the pee poor spell lores. I guess they want them everywhere, cause I can‘t believe it‘s an oversight. 
 

Anyways, I think it‘s fair to say that 4th does some things well but far from a flawless edition, that much is clear already. My major (personal) beef are missing allies but the weak lores, the OP endless spells and so on are not exactly ideal. A friend bought the starter set, so I‘ll play rats at least once and I‘ve looked a lot more at DoT and see that there are a few somewhat decent lists but I‘m not a big fan of what they‘ve done to my army. 
 

 

Edited July 24 by MitGas

[ScionOfOssia]

The lores are fine, if small at the moment and I’ve been playing OBR so allies haven’t really ever been a thing for me. My only major complaints are the distribution of the “subcommanders” and basically everything to do with Manifestations beyond them being punchable. 

[Painbringer]

They can always publish new Magic module that will be in effect for tournaments or next GHB season. They even mentioned something like that in one of the early developer interviews - this way, who wants to play with free Manifestations gets to do that still, while others can play with the new Magic module. Here's the quote:
 

Quote

So, how will modularity impact this? “In the future, we could simply replace the magic module entirely with a ‘Magic of Andtor’ module, as an example. This could seamlessly integrate thematic modifications to the magic rules for that battlepack, without resorting to extensive Core Rules errata or layers of extra rules on top.” 

The source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/03/28/warhammer-age-of-sigmar-what-are-modular-rules-and-what-do-they-mean-for-you/

Edited July 24 by Painbringer

[Grimrock]

34 minutes ago, Painbringer said:

They can always publish new Magic module that will be in effect for tournaments or next GHB season. They even mentioned something like that in one of the early developer interviews - this way, who wants to play with free Manifestations gets to do that still, while others can play with the new Magic module. Here's the quote:
 

The source: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/03/28/warhammer-age-of-sigmar-what-are-modular-rules-and-what-do-they-mean-for-you/

I don't think they would need to modify the magic module just to get costs, the army composition module handles selection of manifestation lores so it'd probably have to be there. They could definitely tweak the magic module with other bits though, maybe limiting each wizard to only cast one manifestation per turn or maybe even one manifestation per army per turn. They could also make it so you can't cast a summoning spell in your opponent's turn. The problem with all that though is it will likely be a full year before they start tweaking modules with a GHB so I'm not sure that'll be sufficient. If manifestations are really as bad as they're being made out to be they'll have to do a big eratta change sooner than later.

[Beliman]

I know it's a bit early, but another graphic:

I didn't know about kruleboyz and Khorne, I had the feeling that they had enough tools to play 4th edition. Another surprise are FEC, I thought that they were above most armies, over 54-56% winrate (between the fine line of being better than most armies in the game).

Appart from manifestations, I would say that cavalry is really strong:
3 health per model for a 5-man cavalry unit, with movement 10+, that can be reinforced for 30+ wounds total, with probably a 3+ innate save, is awesome (even better than Mega-Gargants). And all of this comes within 400-600 points (my "cavalry-combo is 840p for close or less damage but extremely low health).

Edited July 24 by Beliman

[Acrozatarim]

Bear in mind that the win rates from this very early bout of tournaments are not going to deliver definitive truths about everything.

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

39 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Appart from manifestations, I would say that cavalry is really strong:3 health per model for a 5-man cavalry unit, with movement 10+, that can be reinforced for 30 wounds total, with probably a 3+ innate save, is awesome (even better than Mega-Gargants). And all of this comes betwenn 400-600p (my "cavalry-combo is 840p for a bit more damage but extremely low health).

Yah. I've got a feeling that having lots of cavalry is what's going to keep Hedonites in the game. Hellstriders are decidedly tasty now! 

[pixieproxy]

2 hours ago, Acrozatarim said:

Bear in mind that the win rates from this very early bout of tournaments are not going to deliver definitive truths about everything.

For one thing I feel like people are A) Still learning and B) trying new or weird things

[Boingrot Bouncer]

11 hours ago, ScionOfOssia said:

You can just say “Slaves To Darkness and Lumineth”. 

Hate to say it but are preparing for the point rise, but feels like troggoths also escaped most point raising and still had their war scrolls mostly intact.

Edited July 24 by Boingrot Bouncer
Swedish word snuck in like a sneaky goblin.

[Ejecutor]

3 hours ago, Beliman said:

I know it's a bit early, but another graphic:

I didn't know about kruleboyz and Khorne, I had the feeling that they had enough tools to play 4th edition. Another surprise are FEC, I thought that they were above most armies, over 54-56% winrate (between the fine line of being better than most armies in the game).

Appart from manifestations, I would say that cavalry is really strong:
3 health per model for a 5-man cavalry unit, with movement 10+, that can be reinforced for 30+ wounds total, with probably a 3+ innate save, is awesome (even better than Mega-Gargants). And all of this comes within 400-600 points (my "cavalry-combo is 840p for close or less damage but extremely low health).

IMO it is too early. Even if a faction could be strong the players still have to find the key to that army.

[Chikout]

3 hours ago, Beliman said:

I know it's a bit early, but another graphic:

I didn't know about kruleboyz and Khorne, I had the feeling that they had enough tools to play 4th edition. Another surprise are FEC, I thought that they were above most armies, over 54-56% winrate (between the fine line of being better than most armies in the game).

Appart from manifestations, I would say that cavalry is really strong:
3 health per model for a 5-man cavalry unit, with movement 10+, that can be reinforced for 30+ wounds total, with probably a 3+ innate save, is awesome (even better than Mega-Gargants). And all of this comes within 400-600 points (my "cavalry-combo is 840p for close or less damage but extremely low health).

There is absolutely no way that Kruleboyz are going to stay bottom of the pile for long. They are one of the strongest 4th edition armies. Nighthaunt on the other hand are probably one of the most likely factions to get a bit of a nerf in the next update