General Chat Thread

[MitGas]

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

In AoS one has to rely on special characters since all meaningful customization has been stripped away. 

And that sucks! To me the biggest fun was creating a mighty lord, MY mighty lord. I don‘t wanna field special characters all the time, they should be something special after all. 
 

I think manifestations just need point costs, that would already quite help a bit as it would mean the forces abusing them have to cut back on units. If that isn‘t enough, or alternatively, make them summonable once per game. That would add a tactical element to them. 
 

I‘m not overtly fond of some of the Tzeentch alterations (no allies, no real hammers, loss of heroes, you know my typical whining by heart now I figure) but when I bind units with unlimited spawn and then just nuke them with a purple sun and friends and spam the d3 MW spell, I don‘t even care that my anvil units are bad now. I guess that‘s how they want you to play DoT, I‘m not sure it‘s fun to play against tho! 

[Dragon-knight77]

14 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

Looking for something completely unrelated, as I had no clue this Italian bad existed, I got a promo about this "Trollslayer" album: Wind Rose | Trollslayer - CD DIGIPAK - Heavy / Power / Symphonic | Season of Mist (season-of-mist.com)

Yes Wind Rose pretty great they're a band that literally made a band from their love of WHF dwarfs & did bunch of "Dwarf metal" covers 

The Gates of Ekrund a literal reference to the story of Dawii Karak Ekrund and fall during the goblin wars

my personal favorite cover is Drunken dwarves

and obviously the mainstream meme cover of Diggy diggy hole 

 

[MitGas]

Nothing warhammery but I don‘t care - https://variety.com/2024/tv/news/dexter-resurrection-michael-c-hall-sequel-series-1236086112/

Dexter will be back, there‘s going to be another sequel with Michael C. Hall. This is like Christmas to me. I love Dexter! 

Edited July 27 by MitGas
Sorry, I just had to share my joy.

[Sception]

I don't like the idea of adding points costs to the manifestations.  That either effectively removes them without any motivation to go back and fix their rules (I'd much rather see a temporary removal while a playtest replacement ruleset is prepared - why else go with the modular ruleset if not to do exactly this), or else you maybe see one or two specific ones all the time, where as the lore system bundles at least one or two rarer & more interesting manifestations in with the obvious heavy hitters.

Even adding points costs, if manifestations are re-summonable giant based units that effectively screen out huge swaths of the board then they'll still be a major gameplay problem.  Points or no, their rules need a rework, and again imo until that rework arrives the game is better without them imo.

[woolf]

Imo best fix would be to simply make it so u can only summon each one once per game, when its dead it stays dead just like any other unit, I think main issue with them now is the resource mgmt perspective, ie you waste attacks punching something that will just pop back up, which makes it a very poor strategy as u are not progressing in reducing the enemy army (same as for any other aggressive recursion which has a clear history of always breaking this game when it exists).

I don't mind the tactical elements of them being useful in denying area etc, so with that addition I think they will be fine as a concept. 

The other issue that will then have to be fixed is the balance between them as Purple Sun & friends is clearly better than the rest in most cases at this point, that will have to be tweaked through warscroll changes I would think..

[Beliman]

Just put Once Per Battle (Army) in each summon manifestation ability.

[MitGas]

9 minutes ago, woolf said:

Imo best fix would be to simply make it so u can only summon each one once per game, when its dead it stays dead just like any other unit, I think main issue with them now is the resource mgmt perspective, ie you waste attacks punching something that will just pop back up, which makes it a very poor strategy as u are not progressing in reducing the enemy army (same as for any other aggressive recursion which has a clear history of always breaking this game when it exists).

I don't mind the tactical elements of them being useful in denying area etc, so with that addition I think they will be fine as a concept. 

The other issue that will then have to be fixed is the balance between them as Purple Sun & friends is clearly better than the rest in most cases at this point, that will have to be tweaked through warscroll changes I would think..

Yeah, you‘ve raised good points - I can‘t imagine they won‘t bring an update regarding these in time however. I figure they let a couple of armies have their fun with them and later on rebalance them as more and more people will complain else. I know AoS isn‘t designed as a deathmatch like other systems but right now it feels like manifestations are bigger threats than many units and you play more around them than the units which feels wrong. So it‘s either gonna be point costs, a once per game deal, easier banishment or big nerfs. I could imagine point costs and once per game would be enough to reign them in but I‘m no game designer.

[ScionOfOssia]

17 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Yeah, you‘ve raised good points - I can‘t imagine they won‘t bring an update regarding these in time however. I figure they let a couple of armies have their fun with them and later on rebalance them as more and more people will complain else. I know AoS isn‘t designed as a deathmatch like other systems but right now it feels like manifestations are bigger threats than many units and you play more around them than the units which feels wrong. So it‘s either gonna be point costs, a once per game deal, easier banishment or big nerfs. I could imagine point costs and once per game would be enough to reign them in but I‘m no game designer.

They’re bigger threats than basically anything in the Deepkin, possibly even including Big Turtle. They’re comically overpowered at the moment. 

[Ejecutor]

With Mechanicus we close all the pending stuff from previews, IIRC.

Sunday Preview – Devastation Comes to Tallarn - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I'm surprised by how many people are ready to completely write Manifestations out of the game already. Because limiting their summoning to once per game would definitely do that, especially if other restrictions are layered on top. Maybe it's just that I didn't yet play against any of the mega-casters, but it felt to me that I always had a lot of counter-play against Manifestations by just bringing a unit along that can unbind and banish. Plus, Manifestations are symmetrical at base (everyone gets equal access to the best ones, pretty much). I mean, RIP KO, I guess, but everyone else.

I see the justification for something like rebalancing Morbid Conjuration, because that lore really is significantly better than the others with its extra Manifestation and basically all of them being good. I would also support a limit of one Manifestation per wizard or per turn. But everything beyond that feels like it is based in panic about the game playing in a way people are not yet used to.

[Beliman]

55 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I mean, RIP KO, I guess, but everyone else.

Maybe it's time to move KOs to War40k. Rulewise, it seems that our army can't even handle 4.0 ed.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Maybe it's time to move KOs to War40k. Rulewise, it seems that our army can't even handle 4.0 ed.

Hoping for some help for your guys soon. KO are my favourite AoS dorfs.

Getting back Spell in a Bottle would be good, and much more managable than before since everyone already has to prepare for Manifestations. Also, I think some serious anti-spell or anti-wizard tech would not be a bad thing to give to the army. Personally, I think it is overall fine that there are armies that can't do magic (or shoot, or fight well, or pray...), but you need to have the tools to still play the game, at least.

I suppose short-term point cuts are the best we can hope for.

[PraetorDragoon]

18 hours ago, Ejecutor said:

With Mechanicus we close all the pending stuff from previews, IIRC.

Sunday Preview – Devastation Comes to Tallarn - Warhammer Community (warhammer-community.com)

I like everything but the tank in there.

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

Seeing ancient stuff like the Dragon Company dwarfs being resurrected for Made To Order makes me wonder what glorious old Chaos miniatures might surface when their time rolls around in The Old World.

Like... 

@

 

 

[ScionOfOssia]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

just bringing a unit along that can unbind and banish.

That’s easier said than done when the number of spellcasters in your faction can be counted on one hand and the number of good ones can be counted on one finger and the number that don’t also cost 17.5% of your list can be counted on a hand that has had an encounter with a particularly hungry saltwater crocodile. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, ScionOfOssia said:

That’s easier said than done when the number of spellcasters in your faction can be counted on one hand and the number of good ones can be counted on one finger and the number that don’t also cost 17.5% of your list can be counted on a hand that has had an encounter with a particularly hungry saltwater crocodile. 

Both Idoneth and OBR look like they have solid wizard options. Great even, in the case of OBR. Not sure if you play any other factions.

[Grimrock]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'm surprised by how many people are ready to completely write Manifestations out of the game already. Because limiting their summoning to once per game would definitely do that, especially if other restrictions are layered on top. Maybe it's just that I didn't yet play against any of the mega-casters, but it felt to me that I always had a lot of counter-play against Manifestations by just bringing a unit along that can unbind and banish. Plus, Manifestations are symmetrical at base (everyone gets equal access to the best ones, pretty much). I mean, RIP KO, I guess, but everyone else.

I see the justification for something like rebalancing Morbid Conjuration, because that lore really is significantly better than the others with its extra Manifestation and basically all of them being good. I would also support a limit of one Manifestation per wizard or per turn. But everything beyond that feels like it is based in panic about the game playing in a way people are not yet used to.

It's not really all that surprising is it? Having endless spells free for everyone is completely new and has a ton of drawbacks. First they benefit factions in a very uneven manner. Factions with good wizards and easy bonuses to cast like OBR will love them, but factions with meh wizards and very restricted access to casting bonuses like Nurgle won't really get much out of them (plus, like you said, RIP KO). Second there are serious balance issues when comparing the different lores (both universal and faction specific), to the extent that it doesn't seem likely GW could ever balance them properly without a complete rewrite. Finally if you don't already own them they're essentially a tax on the game where you have to pay money but don't get any points in your list, and that's if you can even buy them because of repeated stock issues. You put all that together and they don't feel like a module that was designed to be a core part of the game, they feel like a raging dumpster fire and the game would be better off without them. 

Edited July 29 by Grimrock

[Tonhel]

1 hour ago, Grimrock said:

It's not really all that surprising is it? Having endless spells free for everyone is completely new and has a ton of drawbacks. First they benefit factions in a very uneven manner. Factions with good wizards and easy bonuses to cast like OBR will love them, but factions with meh wizards and very restricted access to casting bonuses like Nurgle won't really get much out of them (plus, like you said, RIP KO). Second there are serious balance issues when comparing the different lores (both universal and faction specific), to the extent that it doesn't seem likely GW could ever balance them properly without a complete rewrite. Finally if you don't already own them they're essentially a tax on the game where you have to pay money but don't get any points in your list, and that's if you can even buy them because of repeated stock issues. You put all that together and they don't feel like a module that was designed to be a core part of the game, they feel like a raging dumpster fire and the game would be better off without them. 

100%.

In third they weren't really an issue or used much, but now they became a mandotary tool and in many cases better than actual units. It's mindblowing that they didn't see this with playtesting.

 

[Ejecutor]

11 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

100%.

In third they weren't really an issue or used much, but now they became a mandotary tool and in many cases better than actual units. It's mindblowing that they didn't see this with playtesting.

 

The question is... do they really play test?

[Bosskelot]

1 hour ago, Tonhel said:

100%.

In third they weren't really an issue or used much, but now they became a mandotary tool and in many cases better than actual units. It's mindblowing that they didn't see this with playtesting.

 

They absolutely did see it with playtesting but I can also imagine the Endless Spells not being big sellers so there could have easily been a push from higher up to push them in the rules too.

[ScionOfOssia]

4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

solid wizard options

Idoneth have 3 wizards, 2 who can only take Namarti or Lotann and one who costs 350 points. Hint: Namarti suck this edition, with Reavers being too short ranged to do anything beyond chip damage, and both fall apart to anything harder hitting than a light breeze. So you basically have to take the Sea Eidolon, and/or bite the bullet and bring a piece who doesn’t offer much consistent value and probably needs you to bring them as a solo drop, and neither can get a bonus without also bringing Lotann (Who also isn’t super good, seriously why is a named character one of our only 2 choices for sub commander?) or using our worst possible battle formation. 

 They really aren’t good wizards. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

43 minutes ago, ScionOfOssia said:

Idoneth have 3 wizards, 2 who can only take Namarti or Lotann and one who costs 350 points. Hint: Namarti suck this edition, with Reavers being too short ranged to do anything beyond chip damage, and both fall apart to anything harder hitting than a light breeze. So you basically have to take the Sea Eidolon, and/or bite the bullet and bring a piece who doesn’t offer much consistent value and probably needs you to bring them as a solo drop, and neither can get a bonus without also bringing Lotann (Who also isn’t super good, seriously why is a named character one of our only 2 choices for sub commander?) or using our worst possible battle formation. 

 They really aren’t good wizards. 

That just sounds like you don't want to run your wizards, honestly. Which I sympathize with, I also have a bunch of units in my lists that I would rather bring than a bunch of wizards.

But it seems to me that Idoneth have access to a two cast +1 to cast wizard, a +1 to cast subfaction, a guy who gives out a +1 to cast aura and an artefact that gives enemies -1 to cast. And you it seems like you can comfortably 3 drop while still bringing an extra wizard for 3 casts at +2. I really don't see how it is possible to claim that Idoneth have bad casting with all of that.

It's one thing to say that you feel like endless spells force you into lists that you don't like, which is fair. It's another thing to say that Idoneth don't have the tools to play the magic game, which IMO does not hold up.

[Beliman]

I'm so disapponted about my army that I don't want to play anymore. I have a mini-(friendly)-tournament this weekend, let's see how it goes...

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I'm so disapponted about my army that I don't want to play anymore. I have a mini-(friendly)-tournament this weekend, let's see how it goes...

I hope you find some way to have fun with the current rules. I have been having a pretty difficult time finding success with Cities of Sigmar, too, but at the same time I feel like the underlying rules of 4th are really good and fun, which keep me going back to the drawing board for new lists.

With KO underperforming pretty badly right now going by the first tournament results, maybe we can at least expect some aggressive tune ups in the first battlescroll. As I understand that is what happened in 40k 10th.

[Tonhel]

54 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

That just sounds like you don't want to run your wizards, honestly. Which I sympathize with, I also have a bunch of units in my lists that I would rather bring than a bunch of wizards.

But it seems to me that Idoneth have access to a two cast +1 to cast wizard, a +1 to cast subfaction, a guy who gives out a +1 to cast aura and an artefact that gives enemies -1 to cast. And you it seems like you can comfortably 3 drop while still bringing an extra wizard for 3 casts at +2. I really don't see how it is possible to claim that Idoneth have bad casting with all of that.

It's one thing to say that you feel like endless spells force you into lists that you don't like, which is fair. It's another thing to say that Idoneth don't have the tools to play the magic game, which IMO does not hold up.

The thing is that you are forced to do it. All Idoneth players are forced to do it. My friend plays Idoneth. His army was always light on casting, now he can't anymore. Now you need endless spells, while before you could if you want to. It was a choice. Now you can't if you don't want to lose.

There is already not much choice in AoS and now it is even more limited.

Edited July 29 by Tonhel