Sarouan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 4 minutes ago, PraetorDragoon said: Units that are too weak or too strong are disliked by everyone. Only if they are linked to a point system. If they're used in a scenario that doesn't depend on that for balancing (like putting one "strong" unit against multiple "weak" ones), the effect in game is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 2 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: How feasible is having narrative tournaments in the big events? "Narrative tournament" is a bit of a weird concept, but there are definitely events out there which bill themselves as such, and the one I know of (Holy Havoc) seems to be pretty popular and well received. There are also online narrative events like Animosity that are not tournaments, but are organized and community focused. 2 minutes ago, PraetorDragoon said: One of the issues that balacing has is the skill gap problem. Sometimes, things are fine in high-level play, but a problem in low-level play and things that are fine in low-level play can be a problem in high-level play. We all know that one unit that had to be nerfed because combo xyz. And as you say, casual players can detect when some things are out of whack. Units that are too weak or too strong are disliked by everyone. I agree with this and it's a dynamic that I have experienced in basically all games I play that have list/deck/roster building as part of their mechanics. What is too strong at high and low skill levels often varies pretty strongly. That does not mean that balancing units in relation to either high or low level play is a waste of time, though. Overall, the game should feel good to play for players at any skill level, ideally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarouan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: What is too strong at high and low skill levels often varies pretty strongly. That does not mean that balancing units in relation to either high or low level play is a waste of time, though. Overall, the game should feel good to play for players at any skill level, ideally. Question of skill is also about defining it. Most of the time I saw online and in my club, it is about list building at the standard format and how to use it in that same format. Once you go out of that format, the same players are often lost, because all the meta they are trained to isn't the same. Sure, they know the rules, but habits are double edged. That's why I believe balance is a trap. The more parameters you want in your game, the more unbalanced it will naturally be. And the more balance you want it to be...the less options you want to give so that it's the fairest for all in all situations. I think all players here agree that no one really wants to have a Stormcast Eternal basically be the same than a Rat Ogre in terms of gameplay. Yet it would make sense for a balanced game where only skill matters. Edited September 12 by Sarouan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 42 minutes ago, Sarouan said: Only if they are linked to a point system. If they're used in a scenario that doesn't depend on that for balancing (like putting one "strong" unit against multiple "weak" ones), the effect in game is different. Even then, you can have the strong unit be too strong (too good at dealing with mulltiple units) or the weak units too weak (incapable of interacting with the strong unit) and lead to a bad experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarouan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 1 minute ago, PraetorDragoon said: Even then, you can have the strong unit be too strong (too good at dealing with mulltiple units) or the weak units too weak (incapable of interacting with the strong unit) and lead to a bad experience. Depends of the case. For example, if we play a cooperative game where players have strong units on purpose, but having to fight waves of weaker units directed by an AI style pattern / game master - and the goal of the game seeing how long they can survive / how many kills they do : will it be a bad experience for them for being basically demi-gods destroying mere minions and having a competition about it, and the game designed for exactly that point ? I think it would be the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 9 minutes ago, Sarouan said: Depends of the case. For example, if we play a cooperative game where players have strong units on purpose, but having to fight waves of weaker units directed by an AI style pattern / game master - and the goal of the game seeing how long they can survive / how many kills they do : will it be a bad experience for them for being basically demi-gods destroying mere minions and having a competition about it, and the game designed for exactly that point ? I think it would be the opposite. Players would still complain about not being able to use their pet units and other players outclassing them in this scenario. We know this because it is exactly what happens in cooperative games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarouan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 3 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Players would still complain about not being able to use their pet units and other players outclassing them in this scenario. We know this because it is exactly what happens in cooperative games. That's why the side with weak units would be played by a game master or an AI pattern, like it's intended for the next edition of Kill Team. The players are on the strong side. No one cares about the feelings of an AI. And a game master knows better than complaining about some pet units. I guess you think of cooperative games still in a PvP environment. I'm talking more about PvE here. Balance for AoS is designed strictly on a Matched Play, PvP with equal points on each side. Once you get out of that format, it doesn't have the same meaning nor importance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 4 minutes ago, Sarouan said: I guess you think of cooperative games still in a PvP environment. I'm talking more about PvE here. Balance for AoS is designed strictly on a Matched Play, PvP with equal points on each side. Once you get out of that format, it doesn't have the same meaning nor importance. You make way too many assumptions about the kinds of games I play and how I think about them, dude. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarouan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: You make way too many assumptions about the kinds of games I play and how I think about them, dude. Then tell me : what are the cooperative games you're talking about in that situation, to say with such confidence that people would still complain in them ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 9 minutes ago, Sarouan said: No one cares about the feelings of an AI. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 1 minute ago, Sarouan said: Then tell me : what are the cooperative games you're talking about in that situation, to say with such confidence that people would still complain in them ? People will always complain no matter what. Even about others complaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 1 minute ago, Sarouan said: Then tell me : what are the cooperative games you're talking about in that situation, to say with such confidence that people would still complain in them ? Every role playing game ever, where the set up is always explicitly PvE and people do actually want to work together, but still regularly complain about certain character archetypes not being able to contribute or being overshadowed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarouan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Ejecutor said: People will always complain no matter what. Even about others complaining. Except when they don't. I know, it's easy to make assumptions from hypothetical cases, but when I do play cooperative games against units managed by AI pattern, I don't really hear many complaints from my game partners about how other players outclassing them in that game...since we're litterally playing against no player, we're playing together against a bullied AI. Edited September 12 by Sarouan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogmantra Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 22 hours ago, MitGas said: Yeah, the mind-numbingly stupid symbols are thankfully gone (seriously, who the heck ever allowed that to happen) but that wasn‘t the only thing that made KT horrible to play. I really hope they reworked quite a bit more. KT would be a goldmine for GW if it had great rules. Every video gamer that likes the universe would be willing to buy a squad… and we all know, that‘s how you lure them in! 😇 kill team is already a gold mine for gw lol, it's one of their most popular specialist games and has specifically done well in spain competing for the infinity crowd, changing it radically would be one of the biggest mistakes GW could make Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarouan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 7 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Every role playing game ever, where the set up is always explicitly PvE and people do actually want to work together, but still regularly complain about certain character archetypes not being able to contribute or being overshadowed. Damn, if that happens all the time with all your players at the table, it must be miserable for you. I guess I'm just more lucky than you on that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 3 minutes ago, Sarouan said: Damn, if that happens all the time with all your players at the table, it must be miserable for you. I guess I'm just more lucky than you on that matter. Yeah sure, dude. Stuff that people have been literally complaining about for decades like the disparity between martials and casters in DnD is exclusively down to my personal failings as an individual 🙄 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PraetorDragoon Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 10 minutes ago, Sarouan said: Then tell me : what are the cooperative games you're talking about in that situation, to say with such confidence that people would still complain in them ? I have definitly had a co-op game where my friend complained because his stuff was too weak. It was, and seeing him struggle made me enjoy the game less as well. Sadly certain levels of imbalance do hurt games. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarouan Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Yeah sure, dude. Stuff that people have been literally complaining about for decades like the disparity between martials and casters in DnD is exclusively down to my personal failings as an individual 🙄 Never said that, mind you. Besides, I know all about class imbalance in RPGs. My halfling knight is specialized in mobility and dueling, and yet I can see our elf wizard blasting most of the enemy with his OP spells or the barbarian dwarf one-shoting the boss in her rage before I get there. But yet, I recognize my character is just here to maintain the line while the heavy hitters do their job. Besides, he has other RP strengths. So I never complained about that. It's just a matter of perspective, in the end. People who love to complain will always be there, sure. But I think there's a distinction between those who complain because of real game problems and those who complain because they do it for everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfyre Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 How to win friends and influence people - a list with 2 units of reinforced Windchargers and a unit of reinforced Sentinel in the latest tournament article on Goonhammer! 😵 Fox 2000/2000 pts —– Grand Alliance Order | Lumineth Realm-lords | Hurakan Temple Drops: 3 Spell Lore – Lore of Hysh Manifestation Lore – Morbid Conjuration —– General’s Regiment Sevireth, Lord of the Seventh Wind (350) • General Hurakan Windchargers (340) • Reinforced — Regiment 1 Ellania and Ellathor, Eclipsian Warsages (280) Hurakan Spirit of the Wind (240) Hurakan Windchargers (340) • Reinforced Vanari Auralan Sentinels (300) • Reinforced — Regiment 2 Scinari Calligrave (150) • Masterful Tactician • Silver Wand —– Faction Terrain Shrine Luminor 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Kim Woof-Woof Posted Friday at 05:08 AM Share Posted Friday at 05:08 AM (edited) 8 hours ago, Starfyre said: How to win friends and influence people - a list with 2 units of reinforced Windchargers and a unit of reinforced Sentinel in the latest tournament article on Goonhammer! 😵 God, I hate the Lumineth. They're always pulling stunts like this. That's when they're not bringing Teclis along to every game. Gaahhh. (Nothing against Lumineth players, really. One of my best friends is a Lumineth player. But they are all heartless, conniving, power-gaming bennies, without exception.) Edited Friday at 05:09 AM by Big Kim Woof-Woof 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitGas Posted Friday at 10:46 AM Author Share Posted Friday at 10:46 AM 5 hours ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said: God, I hate the Lumineth. They're always pulling stunts like this. That's when they're not bringing Teclis along to every game. Gaahhh. (Nothing against Lumineth players, really. One of my best friends is a Lumineth player. But they are all heartless, conniving, power-gaming bennies, without exception.) Time to find better friends! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted Friday at 11:26 AM Share Posted Friday at 11:26 AM I've played another game. My opponent played SCE with 3 chambers (vanguard, warrior and sacrosant) and a completely lore-friendly list with only infantry. I've played a double frigate, one with 10 thunderers and an endrinmaster, the other with 12 skywardens and 2 arkanauts and a navi on foot. I won the game for one point, in the last play of the game because 5 sequitors coudn't kill my Nav with AoD. It's crazy how some armies/ lists ara FAR AWAY from other armies/lists. I will never try to spam the fotm, but it seems that you are punished if you don't. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grungnisson Posted Friday at 04:18 PM Share Posted Friday at 04:18 PM On 9/8/2024 at 9:41 PM, PraetorDragoon said: DOOM HAS COME TO THE WORLD Oh, fear not. We spent the summer moving from the UK to France, and the life routines are all still up in the air. It'll be a while before I can afford anything more, time wise, than an occasional lurk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthanolMuffins Posted Friday at 07:41 PM Share Posted Friday at 07:41 PM Went to my LGS for the first time in a bit and they had 2 boxes of Skaventide still available, so I nabbed myself one Super happy I could get one, its a great box 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitGas Posted Saturday at 12:42 AM Author Share Posted Saturday at 12:42 AM On 9/12/2024 at 2:01 PM, Ejecutor said: I thought I only liked dogs and birbs, but I‘ll add AIs to my list. 🥰 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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