General Chat Thread

[woolf]

26 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I hope the wheel goes. That was always my least favourite thing about Nurgle. But then I also hope they get some new ability to make up for the loss of it and summoning. Maybe some kind of pollution mechanic?

Yeah that would be cool, since there is a bit more interaction with terrain in 4th something that interacts and corrupts that would be flavourful

[Grungnisson]

8 hours ago, Gailon said:

I would expect the Fyreslayers to keep the hero ability to deploy one unit along with that hero into deep strike. 
 

They definitely have more deepstrike abilities. It’s an interesting mechanic to lean into so heavily. 

Oh, I am certainly hoping so. But I just found it curious, that yes, practically all previewed armies got some reserve mechanic mentioned, apart from one that is famously slow and have always been challenged with mobility.

[Bosskelot]

RE: all the talk earlier about Rend and lethality in the Rumour thread...

If GW are going to remove Battleshock and also not have any system for units breaking and running away, then the game needs to become more killy in order for stuff to actually happen.

[Grungnisson]

19 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

RE: all the talk earlier about Rend and lethality in the Rumour thread...

If GW are going to remove Battleshock and also not have any system for units breaking and running away, then the game needs to become more killy in order for stuff to actually happen.

Not neccessarily. At least not from the points scoring perspective. Hence the introduction of objective control manipulation mechanics. Increasing yours, decreasing your opponent's etc.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

50 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

RE: all the talk earlier about Rend and lethality in the Rumour thread...

If GW are going to remove Battleshock and also not have any system for units breaking and running away, then the game needs to become more killy in order for stuff to actually happen.

I think it is more killy on balance.

Less killy:

• Lower rend
• No Battleshock
• More 4/4 weapon profiles

More killy:

• Lower saves
• No easy save stacking
• 3" combat range
• Offensive bonuses seem largely intact

From the arm chair right now, though, I would expect more combats that last 2-3 combat phases in the new edition.

[PraetorDragoon]

Don't forget that charges are also easier (with counter charge and more mobility in general). 

Lower rend in combination with lower saves is going to be interesting, as in that case going from 0 to 1 or 1 to 2 is more important than reaching rend 3 or better.

I think 4e will be at least as lethal as 3e.

[woolf]

7 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think it is more killy on balance.

Less killy:

• Lower rend
• No Battleshock
• More 4/4 weapon profiles

More killy:

• Lower saves
• No easy save stacking
• 3" combat range
• Offensive bonuses seem largely intact

From the arm chair right now, though, I would expect more combats that last 2-3 combat phases in the new edition.

Vince said on his stream that the game is less killy in general in his experience UNLESS you hit the right unit with the right counter, i.e. since there is so much Anti-X (+ rend/dmg). Personally I very much like that as it becomes more skill expression to try and orchestrate the right encounters, so deployment, baiting, setting up for countercharges etc becomes very important. And having nuances with certain units being good at certain other types is much more interesting than just buffing to high heavens and nuke <insert any target>

Ofc he is just one influencer so lets see, but he does seem to have had some actual play test experience and he is obv super emerged in the game.

Edit: if this is the case, high mobility armies should be real winners I think for easier picking their fights.. so IDK e.g. should be in a good place I think

Edited June 5 by woolf

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Bosskelot said:

If GW are going to remove Battleshock and also not have any system for units breaking and running away, then the game needs to become more killy in order for stuff to actually happen

Looking at faction focus warscrolls and Traits, unless there is something I'm missing, it seems the opposite. Only a few units improved their damage, and most armies lost passive buffs or rerolls. Rend seems to go down a bit unless your units target their favorite prey.

I've done a bit of mathammer, and I just compared the results (not the damage output):

• With all 3th edition bonus, I can kill Kragnos in 2 average rounds of shooting (maybe 1 if you are lucky, it's all about 1.5 wounds), using Frigate+10thunderers (and any dedicated buffs).
• In 4th edition, with the same 10 Thunderers and Skyvessel, I need at least 3 average rounds of shooting to kill him (ignoring any gameplay stuff, like obscuring or Cover).

I need to add khemist/admiral buffs, but I'm not sure that the result will be so much diferent.

Edited: WRONG: (Kragnos has 4+ save now)

• 3th edition:  I can kill Kragnos in 2 average rounds of shooting (maybe 1 if you are lucky, it's all about 1.5 wounds), using Frigate+10thunderers (and any dedicated buffs).
• 4th edition: With the same 10 Thunderers and Skyvessel, I need need the same 2 average rounds of shooting to kill him (ignoring any gameplay stuff, like obscuring or Cover).

I was completely wrong, it's close to the same (a bit more damage output in the 3d edition), but the result will be close to the same.

Edited June 5 by Beliman

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Looking at faction focus warscrolls and Traits, unless there is something I'm missing, it seems the opposite. Only a few units improved their damage, and most armies lost passive buffs or rerolls. Rend seems to go down a bit unless your units target their favorite prey.

I've done a bit of mathammer, and I just compared the results (not the damage output):

• With all 3th edition bonus, I can kill Kragnos in 2 average rounds of shooting (maybe 1 if you are lucky, it's all about 1.5 wounds), using Frigate+10thunderers (and any dedicated buffs).
• In 4th edition, with the same 10 Thunderers and Skyvessel, I need at least 3 average rounds of shooting to kill him (ignoring any gameplay stuff, like obscuring or Cover).

I need to add khemist/admiral buffs, but I'm not sure that the result will be so much diferent.

But did you save-stack Kragnos to negate two points of rend for 3rd edition? Because that was very much the reality of combat against big targets for me in 3rd.

[Beliman]

1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

But did you save-stack Kragnos to negate two points of rend for 3rd edition? Because that was very much the reality of combat against big targets for me in 3rd.

Only +1 save extra (all-out-defense) for both Kragnos.

[Grungnisson]

13 minutes ago, woolf said:

Vince said on his stream that the game is less killy in general in his experience UNLESS you hit the right unit with the right counter, i.e. since there is so much Anti-X (+ rend/dmg).

However, I do believe he only referred to Spearhead experience. So, limited additional game mechanics, stripped down warscrolls.

[Marcvs]

have we seen any examples of actual reduction in rend for the same warscroll going from 3rd to 4th so far?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

have we seen any examples of actual reduction in rend for the same warscroll going from 3rd to 4th so far?

Freeguild Cavaliers lost 1 rend on the charge.

[Ejecutor]

Which other factions are heavily involved with rend?

[Xil]

1 minute ago, Ejecutor said:

Which other factions are heavily involved with rend?

Kurnoth Hunter Scythes. But in general Sylvaneth have mostly -1

[PraetorDragoon]

6 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:

Which other factions are heavily involved with rend?

IIRC the Bonereapers could easily stack rend. But I could misremember.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

17 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Only +1 save extra (all-out-defense) for both Kragnos.

I feel like we really need to see the full picture in practice. When I am playing big high-save units in 3rd ed, I definitely make it a priority to save-stack them to +2. If defenders can't reliably get beyond +1 saves in 4th and attackers can now get a match-up dependent +1 to rend and more attacks in range due to 3" combat, I think the average combat may turn out more deadly. It may be that assuming equal buffs, lethality goes down in 4th, but I think buffs are unlikely to be equal.

[Bosskelot]

58 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Looking at faction focus warscrolls and Traits, unless there is something I'm missing, it seems the opposite. Only a few units improved their damage, and most armies lost passive buffs or rerolls. Rend seems to go down a bit unless your units target their favorite prey.

I've done a bit of mathammer, and I just compared the results (not the damage output):

• With all 3th edition bonus, I can kill Kragnos in 2 average rounds of shooting (maybe 1 if you are lucky, it's all about 1.5 wounds), using Frigate+10thunderers (and any dedicated buffs).
• In 4th edition, with the same 10 Thunderers and Skyvessel, I need at least 3 average rounds of shooting to kill him (ignoring any gameplay stuff, like obscuring or Cover).

I need to add khemist/admiral buffs, but I'm not sure that the result will be so much diferent.

I'm not making a statement about how killy 4th itself is looking, more that unless something is done to counteract the lack of battleshock/morale (ie through lethality) games will become too grindy.

[Xil]

28 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I feel like we really need to see the full picture in practice. When I am playing big high-save units in 3rd ed, I definitely make it a priority to save-stack them to +2. If defenders can't reliably get beyond +1 saves in 4th and attackers can now get a match-up dependent +1 to rend and more attacks in range due to 3" combat, I think the average combat may turn out more deadly. It may be that assuming equal buffs, lethality goes down in 4th, but I think buffs are unlikely to be equal.

I also think that 4th might be more deadly than we might expect it to be. Health and saves often got worse already, while rend often stood the same. And especially with the 3" combat range, as you mentioned, we will have a whole lot more attacks coming in than it was in 3rd.

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

But did you save-stack Kragnos to negate two points of rend for 3rd edition? Because that was very much the reality of combat against big targets for me in 3rd.

Oops, I was wrong. Kragnos is 4+ save now!

[Ragest]

Now you can steal objectives with redeploy, counter charge and power through, and there are some manipulation of control score mechanics, so I think It will be fine.

[Marcvs]

my feeling is that lethality needs to stay high (+ reduction in army size) in order to keep games from getting even longer. The amount of stuff we will be doing in the opponent's turn is much higher and includes some of the most time-consuming activities (moving models, pile-ins, rolling dice for combat), even before we consider the amount of extra analysis that you'll have to do in your turn to factor in these elements (like screening against counter charges)

[Beliman]

So, after a few more numbers, I think that the lethality will just not be higher or lower (models/units killed). It will just be diferent.

I think that the result will be close to the same (the same number of combat/shooting rounds you need to remove X unit). But output damage will be distributed diferently.

In 4th edition, your units are going to kill other low-save units a lot better (we have less offensive buffs, but saves and defensive tools are going down), that makes this edition a bit more lethal even if the damage output of most of the units seems to be lower. But at the same time, the same unit will have a hard time removing units with better defensive stats than in 3rd edition, and this will stabilize the result.

Edited June 5 by Beliman
I'm a potato writer

[Satyrical Sophist]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I hope the wheel goes. That was always my least favourite thing about Nurgle. But then I also hope they get some new ability to make up for the loss of it and summoning. Maybe some kind of pollution mechanic?

I'm not a fan of the current wheel in practice. It's such a random influence. Some games it does barely anything, other games it's just brutal to play against. 

Thematically it's cool, but I think they need to remove it, or put a lot more development into it 

[PraetorDragoon]

If they want to keep the cycle then it would be better to have it work like the idoneth tides.