4th Edition Cities of Sigmar

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

New rules new thread.

Faction pack and army points linked below.

Faction Pack

Link to the full faction pack

 

Points and Army Construction

Link to source

Edited July 10 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

It is interesting how many movement bonuses have been revealed for Cities so far.

2" from subfaction, 2" from Zenestra, 3" from Advance in Formation. Even not going for any other shennenigans, that's +7" turn 1.

And you can fairly easily stack the movement order for humans, as well: Use one Advance in Formation from any hero to push a unit of Cavaliers and a Marshall (for example) foreward, then use it again with the Marshall to push himself and the Cavaliers. Easy +6" movement.

On most battleplans, the distance between you and an enemy unit should be between 18" and 24". Cavalier movement: 10" (base move) + 6" (double order) + 2" (subfaction) + 2" (prayer)= 20" of fairly dependable turn 1 movement.

You can probably skip the subfaction or prayer if you want to try your luck with the 3d6 charge spell instead.

Could an alpha strike with a unit of 10 Cavaliers be a viable tactic? 30 wounds on a 3+ save should be able to pin most enemy units for a while.

[Morathi is my Goddess]

Just a quick note, I believe core rules prevent any unit being affected by the same ability more than once. So you won't be able to stack multiple advance in formation on 1 unit.

I have some thoughts on what we've seen to date, will write up later.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

50 minutes ago, Morathi is my Goddess said:

Just a quick note, I believe core rules prevent any unit being affected by the same ability more than once. So you won't be able to stack multiple advance in formation on 1 unit.

I have some thoughts on what we've seen to date, will write up later.

I know that this goes for passives, but I have not yet looked at the core rules deeply enough to be sure that it extends to every ability (like a general "can't be affected by the same ability more than once per phase" thing). If that's in there, then yeah, you can't double Advance.

If it is not in there in this form, however, I think there might be a chance that double Advance is legal, since the unit is never affected by two instances of the ability at the same time: You can declare and resolve one instance completely before triggering a second instance. This is possible because Advance actually moves you 3" separately every time it is used. If the ability said "add 3" to the units movement characteristic for the rest of the phase" it would not be possible.

Edited July 4 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Morathi is my Goddess]

That makes sense. To be honest I'm finding these rules more confusing than last edition lol

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I just had this thought that Fusiliers are looking pretty attractive as screening units given what we know right now.

• 120 points for 10
• Access to an easy 5+ ward from Orders (garbo melee profile, so "strike last" does not matter)
• Ignore 1 rend from Fortified Position
• Slightly bigger base size compared to Steelhelms

If they keep their stats from 3rd ed, I think they look really solid!

It also seems like they retain their role as a credible shooting threat, given they can still get +1 to wound.

[Morathi is my Goddess]

So from purely a non-competitive perspective but regarding the theme and rules interactions, I LOVE it.

I was honestly really upset with the recent 3rd ed book. I didn't like the hidden orders mechanic and I really didn't like the forced segregation of humans, elves, and dwarves.

These index rules are a complete 180 on that and I think it's brilliant and really looking forward to getting a mix of units on the table.

Competitively it's a bit early to say. However, everything I've seen so far seems to point towards big hero monster slapsticks, or monstrous cavalry. There's also a huge amount of anti-infantry keywords out there.

I'm a little worried that Cities is going to be a high infantry army and we're yet to see any tools that can deal with the Archaon's, Glottkins of the game. 

I did hear that Executioners can be doing crit mortals on 5s on the charge. With a +1 attack order thats a lot of mortal output. Points costs will determine a lot, so keen for Monday to drop already.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

10 minutes ago, Morathi is my Goddess said:

I'm a little worried that Cities is going to be a high infantry army and we're yet to see any tools that can deal with the Archaon's, Glottkins of the game. 

I have a feeling like this advice will be applicable in a lot of situations for Cities:

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Added points to OP.

EDIT:

Some observations.

Fusiliers are indeed down to 120. A big drop from their previous 160.

Hurricanum now cheaper than Luminark, in the case of the non-hero version by a lot! Guessing the Luminark gives out a 5+ ward now, but I am not going back to that Spanish video to confirm.

Steam Tanks and commanders are expensive now, 340 and 300 points. I guess that 2+ save comes at a premium in this edition.

Fusil-Major can join another hero's regiment, which is neat. I think any lists with a ranged presence will want him.

Zenestra is up to 240. Very expensive (same as a Hurricanum with Battlemage). Must be the PRIEST(2), which, to be fair, is really strong.

Gyrocopter up to 160 from 80. Could it be not trash?

Edited July 8 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Satyrical Sophist]

49 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Added points to OP.

EDIT:

Some observations.

Fusiliers are indeed down to 120. A big drop from their previous 160.

Hurricanum now cheaper than Luminark, in the case of the non-hero version by a lot! Guessing the Luminark gives out a 5+ ward now, but I am not going back to that Spanish video to confirm.

Steam Tanks and commanders are expensive now, 340 and 300 points. I guess that 2+ save comes at a premium in this edition.

Fusil-Major can join another hero's regiment, which is neat. I think any lists with a ranged presence will want him.

Zenestra is up to 240. Very expensive (same as a Hurricanum with Battlemage). Must be the PRIEST(2), which, to be fair, is really strong.

Gyrocopter up to 160 from 80. Could it be not trash?

There are some wild points changes. Weird to see Drakespawn more points than cavaliers. 

[Thugmullet]

10 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Added points to OP.

EDIT:

Some observations.

Fusiliers are indeed down to 120. A big drop from their previous 160.

Hurricanum now cheaper than Luminark, in the case of the non-hero version by a lot! Guessing the Luminark gives out a 5+ ward now, but I am not going back to that Spanish video to confirm.

Steam Tanks and commanders are expensive now, 340 and 300 points. I guess that 2+ save comes at a premium in this edition.

Fusil-Major can join another hero's regiment, which is neat. I think any lists with a ranged presence will want him.

Zenestra is up to 240. Very expensive (same as a Hurricanum with Battlemage). Must be the PRIEST(2), which, to be fair, is really strong.

Gyrocopter up to 160 from 80. Could it be not trash?

Chariots from 80 to 140. Like the gyros hoping they'll be a much better unit at that price. They were auto includes for me for 2 at 160. If they kick but now that would be cool.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 hours ago, Thugmullet said:

Chariots from 80 to 140. Like the gyros hoping they'll be a much better unit at that price. They were auto includes for me for 2 at 160. If they kick but now that would be cool.

Two cheap Gyrocopters would have been so good for battle tactics in this edition, too!

Although if they are good I do want to try a full mechanized list with only copters, tanks, artillery and maybe fusiliers.

[Tonhel]

15 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

There are some wild points changes. Weird to see Drakespawn more points than cavaliers. 

Do we have the warscrolls of the black dragon and cold one knights?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

Do we have the warscrolls of the black dragon and cold one knights?

There is that one video of a Spanish youtuber (DKHM?) reading out all the warscrolls, but we have not yet seen pictures of them.

Anyway, they will be up for download officially in 6 hours.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

OK, first try at a list:

r1
Tank Commander		340
Steam Tank		300
Steam Tank		300
r2
Alchemite		110
Steelhelms		100
Steelhelms		100
r3
Freeguild Marshal		130
Fusiliers	reinforced	240
Fusil Major		180
Command Corps		190
	Total	1990

 

• +3" Shooting subfaction
• Probably: prayer book artefact on someone? Maybe Glimmering on the Tank Commander
• Heroic Trait: Master of Ballistics on the Fusil Major
• Steam Tanks to be hard to kill (get one of them into combat and Hold the Line with it, a 2+ 5++ should be really hard to overcome in this edition)
• Fusiliers as a ranged damage/castle unit
• Steelhelms for bodies and that juicy 5+ ward if I can get it
• Alchemite to cast and unbind, plus 3+ chance of +1 saves
• Command Corps for double Covering Fire with the Major and Fusiliers

Points are really tight. I could not even fit Zenestra, although I think I might want to.

Sadly, the Hurricanum now gives +1 to hit in melee only. Good night, sweet prince. I want to maybe try it out in a Collegiate Expedition list that runs more wizards and some Cavaliers. That might be fun.

EDIT: I still highly rate the command corps. The once-per-game command point tax has the potential to completely stop a counter-charge while costing the opponent 2 command points. As long as you have it in your back pocket, the opponent cannot simply hold on to 2 CP for that huge counter charge, because you can always try to foil it.

Edited July 9 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Satyrical Sophist]

Going through the numbers on Cities and probably going to have to stop for the night. One super quick thing I noticed was that the battle mage on griffon seems like it's a respectable amount of damage now. If it is fighting another monster then I think it might be the fightiest mount. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Going through the numbers on Cities and probably going to have to stop for the night. One super quick thing I noticed was that the battle mage on griffon seems like it's a respectable amount of damage now. If it is fighting another monster then I think it might be the fightiest mount. 

I am certainly not used to seriously considering this guy in lists after all of 2nd ed and all of 3rd ed. But I want to try that Collegiate Expedition list at some point and he might actually be good in it. 5 damage attacks vs monsters are certainly nothing to sneeze at.

[Thugmullet]

8 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Going through the numbers on Cities and probably going to have to stop for the night. One super quick thing I noticed was that the battle mage on griffon seems like it's a respectable amount of damage now. If it is fighting another monster then I think it might be the fightiest mount. 

I hope your right if only because 4 years ago I magnatized the head and riders etc on mine to swap them out and I have never had to swap them out before. Be damm good to actually put those magnets to work 😂

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I updated the OP with a link to the faction pack.

Some first impressions of units I have experience with:

Steelhelms

They are close to the same as in 3rd ed. They lost their ability to relay commands to other Steelhelms, but gained the ability to give 5+ ward on objectives. I think with the rejiggering of saves and attack profiles, they look comparatively tanky at 100 points. I think I prefer this version of them.

Fusiliers

Largely unchanged compared to the end of 3rd ed, as well. Most notably, they lost 6" of shooting range, but range has been reduced game wide, so whatever. They gained -1 to rend from Fortified Position in exchange for being ethereal against shooting. I like this change, because it makes them a viable screening unit at 120 points. They are a cheap unit that can ping some wounds while sitting on objectives and is hard to shift (4+ save, 5++ ward potentially, -1 rend). I think these guys are still the best receivers of +1/+1 hit/wound buffs in shooting. Their mobile shot is "shoot in combat", but as far as I can tell there is no easy way to switch to it if you get engaged in melee. You need to make a move action, but pile-ins are not move actions. I will have to take a closer look at the core rules to this one out.

Command Corps

I have seen people dooming over how bad they are now, but that's insane to me. Without anchoring your expectations to last edition, these guys look pretty great. Double commands enables some interesting plays. Double covering fire, rally and perhaps even counter-charge have huge potential. I think we will see the Freeguild-Marshal more this edition, making their symbiotic 5+ ward more relevant, too. They also still fight quite competently. I think they are the highest wound human infantry, so they combo well with the Brazier bringing back d3 models. I already mentioned it in a previous post, but the new command denial still has huge potential to win games. You only get one per game, but command points are so much more important. Imagine this scenario: You are trying to Seize the Center, and your opponent has kept 2 command points back to deny it with a counter charge. Use your command denial in that situation and you are up a battle tactic while the opponent just loses 2 CP. Devestating! But also, just the threat of having this ability on the board will make the opponent hesitant to use commands around the unit.

Freeguild-Marshal

I didn't actually use him last ed, but like him in 4th. First and foremost, he is the cheapest way to unlock "any human" and the Fusil-Major during list building. His new ability to add 3 to control scores is appreciated. I hear those abilities are very good. I also really like like that with the Relic Envoy, no matter where this guy stands on the board, he will be able to deliver orders to units that need them. Together with the Command Corps ward mentioned above, I like this guy now.

Fusil-Major

Another guy I didn't use to run, but I want to give him a try this edition. I still like high numbers of heroes in Cities because Orders are our only allegiance ability and they are very good, and since this guy can tag along without needing an extra drop, that's already a nice niche in my eyes. His ability to give out +1 to hit in the shooting phase board wide, for free is actually super good. Since I want to run a Steam Tank list and the Hurricanum no longer combos with them, this guy is the easiest replacement for it. There is a combo I want to try, which is double Covering Fire with this guy and the Fusiliers for +1 to hit in the opponent's shooting phase. He is not super cheap at 180, but I suspect he will be worth it. Also, he's just a super funny model.

Hurricanum

Sadly got hit pretty hard. It no longer just gives out unconditional +1 to hit, but now makes you choose d3 units in the hero phase to get +1 to hit in melee only until your next turn. This is worse if you want to use it like I used to, to buff Steam Tank shooting, but otherwise is still pretty good. I think the prime target are cavaliers, who can get the buff from it and then charge in without losing access. The Hurricanum with Mage unlocks cavalry, too. The hurricanum without a battlemage is notably pretty cheap. It might be worth considering in a Cavalry-Marshal/Cavalier regiment. The Storm of Shemtek got a little worse in a few ways: It is now once per turn(army), so no stacking hurricanums, and it now uses the new "roll a d3, on a 2+" mechanic to determine its mortal wound output. It also requires line of sight now and had its range reduced. I still think it is a good ability overall. It is not a shooting attack, even though it happens in the shooting phase, so while you can't use it for covering fire, you can target guarded heroes with it (and absolutely wreck them turn 3+).

Steam Tank

The Steam Tank got tuned down in a few ways, but I am not dooming about it. I think that's just a reflection of what is happening to everyone, game wide. It took a few significant hits to its damage: The cannon is now permanently stuck on 1 shot and can't be buffed with Power to the Guns. None of its guns are "shoot in combat". Its wheel melee profile is now "companion", so unbuffable. The Steam Gun no longer benefits from +1 to hit, being on a 2+/4+. Shooting range on the cannon is reduced, too. Finally, the Tank lost its impact hits.

So quite a number of nerfs to its offense, there. What are the upsides? For one, Hold the Line is great Order for the Steam Tank. Damage this edition is lower, and few things will easily chew through 12 health on a 2+, 5++ save. Of course, you can rally it, too. Another really significant buff is that the Tank now has a control score of 5. Previously, the Tank could only really hope to take objectives by killing everything on them. Now one or two of them have a real shot at just capturing it normally.

With heroic actions gone, the Tank Commander no longer has Finest Hour to and is therefor now longer quite as clearly superior to the regular tank. Notably, his gun provides some fairly good extra shooting damage now. He has gained a new OPG ability that gives +1 to hit in the shooting phase to himself and up to two other Steam Tanks, which is neat. The Tank Commander can only take Steam Tanks in his regiment, so bringing one definitely shapes your list fairly significantly, but regular Tanks can join the regiment of any of the Marshals, which I think might be quite useful for... well.. tanking.

Zenestra

She is good, but got a bit more expensive. Plus, she seems harder to fit into lists now. She is now a priest (2) and still unbinds, which seems quite strong to me. She has access to a prayer lore now, too, and she still has her 4+ ward. The range on her 5+ ward has been reduced to 12" from 18", but it seems like getting that ward might be less important now in the first place with so many other sources of the buff being present. In the effort to reduce mortal wounds, she lost her hilarious 2d3 mortal pulse every combat phase. I caught out so many people with that in 3rd, nobody ever saw it coming.

Battlemage

For 110, his warscroll is pretty good, being a 1 cast wizard with access to +1 to cast for a specific spell or manifestation. But the problem with this guy is that he is no longer splashable. He cannot go into any regiments and only unlocks human infantry. The average non-casting focused list probably won't be able to justify bringing him.

Alchemite

Another guy people are hilariously dooming over, but he's great. Roll a 3+, +1 to saves (non-spell, so non-unbindable) is great in an edition without easy access to that buff, and he is still a wizard, too. I rate this guy over the normal Battlemage in so far as you will want to bring him even in non-casting lists.

BONUS UNIT:

Irondrakes

Even though I never used them and don't want to use them: They are still worse than Fusiliers at higher points, lol.

 

[loky100]

Hey,

I agree with nearly everything you wrote. One thing I noticed cause we can give out a 5+ ward in combat our army is very tanky. Also super easy to get a 5+ ward on a bunch of other models too.

Here my take on a bunch of things.

 

Irondrakes probably best shooting in our army now I personally think. 15" 3+ 3+ -1 1 damage is good but with anti infantry +1 rend makes them -2 against a lot of units. Can easily make them 2+ 2+ with the runelord or a hero upgraded.  Move them 4 + 3 with order then shoot so 22" range. 3+ save then 5+ with -1 to hit order.

Drakespawn knights are better then Human Cav. They got 1 less attack but the mount is so much better. Also the order in combat works great with them.

20 hammers with a runelord seems super tanky and hit quite hard.

The hydra with a hero backing it up might be useful. Being 5+ 5+ with a order makes it kinda tanky. Then healing 6 a turn is interesting. Also its ability would just wipe out 4 or 5 health 1 units is wild.

20 Executioners with the order charging in would have 60 attacks that should be 20 mortals on the charge.

Sadly 4+ amour save on hero monster might hurt them a bit but getting a 5+ ward also helps a lot.

I think cities is going to be a 4 or 5 drop in some cases and I think that good. We can slow drop and place our models were they need to be.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 hours ago, loky100 said:

Irondrakes probably best shooting in our army now I personally think. 15" 3+ 3+ -1 1 damage is good but with anti infantry +1 rend makes them -2 against a lot of units. Can easily make them 2+ 2+ with the runelord or a hero upgraded.  Move them 4 + 3 with order then shoot so 22" range. 3+ save then 5+ with -1 to hit order.

Fusiliers, Irondrakes and Darkshard are all pretty close in terms of damage. Darkshards have notably higher damage than the other two if they get all their buffs (not moving, +1/+1, and firing at infantry).  I think the choice will mostly depend on what heroes you are planning to bring, because you need to bring a HUMAN, DUARDIN or AELF hero to unlock them.

 

[Tonhel]

I think an Aelf only army is very doable. Those warscrolls are imo good.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

15 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

I think an Aelf only army is very doable. Those warscrolls are imo good.

All the races are have some really nice stuff, IMO. Maybe mixing them is actually the best way to go this time around.

Aelves are definitely the best fast hammers in the book, I would say, but they have other nice stuff, too.

EDIT: Just kind of hesitant to get into those old models, personally. I might be able to justify a Runelord with some Hammerers because the investment is relatively small, though.

Edited July 11 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Ejecutor]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

All the races are have some really nice stuff, IMO. Maybe mixing them is actually the best way to go this time around.

Aelves are definitely the best fast hammers in the book, I would say, but they have other nice stuff, too.

Yeah. Dark Elves are pretty solid, but I think mixing is the way.

[Satyrical Sophist]

Hopefully this is readable! Been looking at cav. The short words summary is that my beloved Drakespawn Chariots...are not it. Unless it turns out you really need a "cheap" unit for scoring battle tactics, it struggles to do enough. I think you'd be better off paying the premium and going for another option instead. Thaaat said, the 3 cavalry options all seem interesting. I've looked at first no buffs other than the basic unit, so Cavaliers get their charge mortals, Dark Riders get their mortals done at the end of combat, and Drakespawn get bonus cold one attacks vs a wounded target. I've not looked at outside benefits yet. The numbers I'm giving here are all normalised to 100 points of unit for easy comparison. 

Cavaliers charging are the most efficient choice versus any save 3+ or better, and just flat the best choice if Drakespawn can't trigger the bonus attacks for their mounts. Drakespawn on the charge versus a wounded target are better versus any save 4+ or worse. What surprised me was that Dark Riders are really surprisingly comparable. 

When not charging Cavaliers fall off so very badly. They do not grind well, and will punish positioning badly the worst. Drakespawn are pretty clearly the winner if fights go long. The only thing that beats them is Dark Riders vs some absolutely stacked saves. The non charging profile ends up very similar to Longbeards.