4th Edition Cities of Sigmar

[loky100]

I agree with everything people have said. Seems like everything kinda comparable to a certain extent.

With this edition being a bit more grindy drakespawns seem to be the way to go. Thanks for the charts.

I got all my old elves from my fantasy days rebased but I can fully understand why people wouldn't want to buy them for them to disappear maybe next book.

I think that's the biggest thing holding people back after they just got rid of so much stormcast who knows what next for cities.

I think the army is in a good position just be interesting to see how it all comes out at the end.

 

[Satyrical Sophist]

9 minutes ago, loky100 said:

I agree with everything people have said. Seems like everything kinda comparable to a certain extent.

With this edition being a bit more grindy drakespawns seem to be the way to go. Thanks for the charts.

I got all my old elves from my fantasy days rebased but I can fully understand why people wouldn't want to buy them for them to disappear maybe next book.

I think that's the biggest thing holding people back after they just got rid of so much stormcast who knows what next for cities.

I think the army is in a good position just be interesting to see how it all comes out at the end.

 

I'm happier to get the aelves to be honest. Most of them slot better into other factions. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I have been thinking about some stuff:

 

First up, Honour Guard. Honour Guard can basically give you one of three abilities that you can select at deployment.

• Special Assignment: +1 rend in melee against a specific type of unit
• Priority Target: +1/+1 hit/wound in melee and shooting against units in the opponent general's regiment
• Bodyguard: -1 attacks in melee if your general is in melee, the honour guard is within 6" of them (in or out of melee) and the honour guard did not charge

You get to decide which one you want at the start of the game, after seeing your opponent's army, so that's nice. But you can only put the buffs on a non-HERO unit in your general's regiment. So you need to pay a little bit of attention during the list building stages if you want to make the most of this rule.

Special Assignment is nice if you have a melee hammer it can go on and your opponent is running a skew list. Personally, that is the extent of use I see for that ability. I would not put +1 rend on an anvil in the hopes that an opponent just charges into it.

I think Priority Target is the better choice in most situations. I think it is likely that we will see a lot of big threats in general's regiments (Warmasters need to be in there, for example), and for players who want to go low drops, they will likely have 4-5 units in them. So that ability gives you a big boost against a lot of valuable targets, especially if you factor in that killing a unit from the general's regiment is also a battle tactic. Giving this ability to a shooting unit is pretty great, too, because it negates the -1 to hit from Covering Fire. Just one extra +1 to hit and you are hitting at full, buffed strength off-turn.

Bodyguard is also very strong. I would say that most units have 2 or 3 attacks per model, so -1 attacks is a significant loss in damage. I am currently considering slapping this on a Steam Tank to guard a Steam Tank Commander, but it might be overkill. I think you want to put it on a fast, tanky unit that can keep up with a big bruiser hero, but you could also always just slap it on an infantry anvil and sit it next to a foot hero general (Runelord+Hammerers?). It's just more likely to be ignored this way.

 

Next, I have been thinking about Battle Tactics a bit.

There are a few tactics in the current battle pack that really reward mobility, so I think having a few high movement units looks important. Sadly, Cities has no teleports or cheap fast fliers, however. Both humans and dwarves might struggle here. It is hard to say who has it harder: Humans get more efficiency out of the movement order, but have nothing above move 10" (Cavaliers are the cheapest at 170 points). They are probably better off bringing the Wildercorps, even though it is fairly slow. Dwarves nominally get to bring Gyrocopters, who are at least 12" flying, but at 160 I just don't think they make the cut. Dark Elves are looking pretty good, though. The Drakespawn Chariot is cheap enough for a 10" move unit (120), and Darkriders (150) are actually really speedy and get to move an extra time at the end of turn if they are ever caught in melee.

There are a few tactics that are, I think, fairly doable for Cities. Slay the Entrourage requires you to destroy an enemy unit from the general's regiment and can be done with ranged attacks, which many Cities lists will be bringing. Slay the Tyrants looks similar, but is a bit different: You need to destroy a HERO unit, but has to be in melee. Chances are good that there will be an opportunity to do this at some point during the game. Do Not Falter is completed by fighting with at least two units and not having any of them be destroyed. Cities is fairly tanky and has a lot of 5+ wards flying around, so I think this is not too hard, either. The biggest difficulty here seems to be to find a good tactic to do turn 1. It is probably Take the Flanks or Take their Land, and you probably get it by chaining Advance in Formation to push something into enemy territory. Otherwise, Seize the Center is an option, but it looks very risky to me, and I think you will get counter-charged.

 

Last topic, ranged buffs.

The rules have a bunch of different ways to get +1 to hit or even +1/+1 to hit/wound for shooting units. There are:

• Master of Ballistics (+1/+1 from All-Out Attack)
• Rune of Unfaltering Aim (+1 to hit with over-pray +1 to wound also for the rest of the turn)
• Fusil-Major (+1 to hit for HUMANs against one unit that the Major previously shot at that turn, board wide)
• Honour Guard Priority Target (see above)

Plus a few more unit specific ones, like to the Steam Tank Commander (OPG +1 to hit for all Steam Tanks, board wide).

But which ones of these do you want if you are trying to build a +1/+1 ranged hammer unit? Is it worth running a Fusil-Major, giving him Master of Ballistics and the Sacred Tome and putting him next to a bunch of Honour Guard Fusiliers? There should probably be two scenarios that you want to cover: getting +1/+1 in your own shooting phase, and getting a few buffs when using Covering Fire (up to +2/+1). Master of Ballistics get you to +1/+1 reliably on your turn at the cost of a command point. If you want to do the same with Unfaltering Aim you will probably need to spend the same command point to counter-pray off-turn or run Zenestra, both of which just seems like the same result with extra steps or cost. If you want to gamble a bit, I think running Honour Guard on your main shooting unit and not using Master of Ballistics at all is viable. Worst case, you miss out on the +1 to wound some of the game, which I think is acceptable. Having a big 18"+ bubble from your Fusiliers in the middle of the board that your opponent never dares to enter with their general's regiments units is not the worst outcome.

I think it is worth noting here that units with the cannon profile (4+/2+) do not need +1 to wound. This actually makes the Fusil-Major very good and might be a reason to include an Ironweld cannon over extra Fusiliers if you run him. It also helps out Steam Tanks. And, if you have the command corps, you can double Covering Fire giving out a +1 to hit off-turn. This might sound like a bad deal, but it's effectively the same as using All-Out Attack, but with a little bit of chip damage from the Fusil-Major.

 

[Satyrical Sophist]

I got some of my numbers slightly wrong. Was accidentally doing the wrong number of expected mortals from the roll a d3, 2+ do that many mortals. I had it as an expected 1.33, its 1.66. So the dark rider number isn't accurate., but I counter balanced that by missing that they need to trigger their sow chaos ability on a 3+ first. Which means its an expected 1.11 mortal damage.  Honestly still looking good and worth while to have a couple of units for scoring early battle tactcs and possibly murdering any backline pieces, I wouldn't want to rely on a 3+ for the free EoT retreat, but given they move 12 a unit can go staggeringly far. 

I want to have a look at shooting units, but a lightning look at some of the infantry had some interesting stuff.

Hammerers are without buffs the biggest hammer unit against anything with armour save 5 or worse. Otherwise its charging executioners, who are so insanely far in the lead vs 2+ or better, and noticeably ahead vs 3+. Other standouts include bleak swords fighting for an objective, who will absolutely out perform at 5+ or 6+, and beat Hammerers but not executioners at 4+ Steel helms are outperformed by all other infantry, so if you are using them, its for the 5++ ability, which seems very good. I hadn't really noticed that black guard no longer need a sorceress for the 5++, but it has downgraded from the nutty 4++ last edition.

[Boar]

On 7/12/2024 at 2:53 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I would not put +1 rend on an anvil in the hopes that an opponent just charges into it.

You would not as Special Assignment requires unit to charge.

Edited July 13 by Boar

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

43 minutes ago, Boar said:

You would not as Special Assaingmnet requires unit to charge.

Special assignment is just really kind of not as good as the other two, huh?

[Boar]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Special assignment is just really kind of not as good as the other two, huh?

Maybe? Hitting only general's regiment with Priority Target seems limiting tough. Whereas bonus rend vs. chosen type of enemy could be quite useful vs. armies that have f.ex. lot of cavalry not in general's regiment. It definetly requires rather fast units, so cavalry or fast infantry like Gluttons perhaps.

[Satyrical Sophist]

Looking at some shooting units! I've basically just looked at no buffs, intrinsic buffs, AoA and AoA with Master of Ballistics (or the prayer that works the same way). Quick summary!

Going through each shooting unit (I've not included the dragons, because its such a small part of them). Dividing roughly in Warhulk, Line Troops, Warmachines, and mixed skirmish units.

Fusil-Major on Warhulk.

He's not amazing for his own shooting, he's about a third as efficient on a per point basis as fusiliers. In order for him to work as a force multiplier you are looking at 3 units of fusiliers, and using your AoA elsewhere. Thats not to say he won't do anything, he'll plink away at heroes and he is just alarmingly tough, with 3+ ignore rend 1. He is also a hero, for orders.

Fusiliers

First off, if they aren't fortified their shooting is kind of dire. If they are fortified they are pretty good. Unbuffed they are either top or close to the top. They have a couple of contenders. Darkshards do more damage if the target has no save whatsover, even if Darkshards don't trigger either of their buffs (anti infantry or the darkshards using their version of fortified).  Wildercorps Hunters are beaten by them if the hunters are not near cover, but win out fractionally if they do benefit from their cover boost. Fusiliers are also very much one of the most survivable options, with a 4+ ignore rend 1 at only 12ppm. Irondrakes DO have a 3+, but at 15 ppm and benefit more from the ward order, but I'd probably rate the Fusiliers higher.

When it comes to buffs, basically all that holds steady, but fusiliers are one of the units that gets the most out of the buff, alongside Corsairs and Wildercorps out of cover.  AoA is a 33% damage increase, and AoA with command trait a 78% one.

Dark Shards

These guys seem very good. They are fractionally behind Fusiliers if you have fortified fusiliers and these guys move and are not shooting infantry.  Particularly vs lighter armoured stuff, these guys will blend it. I really like them. They can move and shoot if needed. They are less resilient than fusiliers, but other than that they seem really interesting.  They take buffs the second (or third technically) best, behind fusiliers and wildercorps. 

Irondrakes 

Technically these guys don't need to stay still, but I just don't think the damage numbers are there. Even if you are having to move dark shards, or shoot wildercorps away from cover, they just don't do as much damage. They do have the best armour, but I just don't think its worth it. I think you'd have to be building heavily into duardin to want to take these guys. The 3+/3+ profile also doesn't benefit as much from buffs are the 4+/4+ one. 

Ironweld Great Cannon.

The model is really cool. It has the longest range, sort of (Dark Riders aren't quite as much damage, but factoring in move, can shoot further). Its probably still the most compact and least vulnerable to chip damage. It doesn't take buffs particularly well, and is not high damage.

Steamtank/Steamtank Commander.

These guys are not efficient, but are clearly there to be tough. The commander is more efficient than the regular tank. I'm a bit concerned with the lack of shoot into combat. Its a shame the commander can only take steam tanks in his regiment.

Luminarch

These guys can be taken in multiples, but I don't think I would. They need to be hitting 3 targets with a save of 2+ to start beating out Fusilers. 

Hurricanum

This guy is now more or less limited to one per army, since Shemtek is now once per army.  Turn 1 if your opponent has any 1+ save stuff, it'll edge out fusiliers, turn 2 its better vs 2+ or better, turn 3 its better than fusiliers vs 3+ saves and close at 4+ saves, turn 4 onwards it wins out vs anything with any armour save at all and turn 5 it just flat out beats fusiliers. One thing is that the unit needs to be visible, but this is not actually a shooting attack, so I don't think heroes can be hidden from it. The numbers I've listed are assuming that you take the non wizard version, the wizard version is 60 points more, so will be less efficient on that front, but honestly might be worth considering over a cavalier marshal, since its only 70 points more. Humans right now are just quite short of units that are looking for the combat buff. I think this thing would be a lot more interesting if greatswords were a thing. 

I'm kind of a bit stuck with my three magic wagons, I don't see a use case outside of 1 hurricanum right now.

Wildercorps

These guys are really interesting! I actually think they are a good choice. They are a very self reliant unit, and can threaten a fairly big area. They also fight pretty well in combat as well, the best of the human infantry. I like them. The arbalest having 2 rend is pretty nice against tanky units. They are one of the more fragile options, but the mixed unit is helpful there. If you are intending the mainly shoot, they can lose 4 dogs before dropping ranged shots, and if they are in melee you can drop regular guys first instead.

Corsairs

I was surprised how effective these guys could be honestly. They are basically one armour save worse than fusiliers at shooting, with worse range, but much faster moving. Between shooting and fighting they will blender light infantry. 

Dark Riders

I definitely want to try out some dark riders. Their shooting isn't the most impressive, its about 60% of fusilier damage. What is impressive is basically everything else. They are a chunky unit now, with 15 wounds at a 4+, making them the same points per wound as steel helms, and better than any of the other options, and are close to as effective as cavaliers on the charge on a per point basis. Combined with frankly nutty speed and positioning. 12 inch movement, and the ability to retreat EoT on a 3+ without taking damage. It can move 12, charge, power through, and then retreat from a different unit. That is 36 plus 2d6. That is nuts. 

[loky100]

Good write up on the different units. Seems like all of them have a place now which is good.

Had my first game this weekend.

I think the game is still the same just better with the changes. 3" fight range makes things so much easier. New commands make the game so much more reactive and really changes how you think about things. Having a 3d6 charge spell is a huge for Cav.

Hammers with a runelord is a great unit and they just smash anything and hardly die. Hydra was good with healing 6 wounds it just stayed around for longer then it should. Human Cav are now anvils and not hammers 3+ save with a 5+ ward just keeps them going.

 

Over all I think the new game is really fun to play. Once you learn it all its just as quick as before. I think Cities are in a good spot and has a ton of options.

[loky100]

Had a little bit of time.

Here is the stats for ranged units.

Last ones are with 1+ to hit and 1+ to wound which isn't hard to do. If you want damage for 20 models just double it.

As you can see Darkshards just deal more damage when they don't move by a bit. Sadly I had good hopes for Iron Drakes but only if they hit infantry, yeah they got more amour but they cost more. Fusiliers sit right in the middle of the two but are cheaper then all. I think they all have a place.

 

 

Now with 1+ to hit and 1+ to wound.

[Satyrical Sophist]

17 minutes ago, loky100 said:

Had a little bit of time.

Here is the stats for ranged units.

Last ones are with 1+ to hit and 1+ to wound which isn't hard to do. If you want damage for 20 models just double it.

As you can see Darkshards just deal more damage when they don't move by a bit. Sadly I had good hopes for Iron Drakes but only if they hit infantry, yeah they got more amour but they cost more. Fusiliers sit right in the middle of the two but are cheaper then all. I think they all have a place.

 

 

Now with 1+ to hit and 1+ to wound.

Dark shards also have anti infantry. The numbers I was looking at were normalised to 100 points, so iron drake numbers divided by 150 and times 100. It’s generally the easiest way I’ve seen to do sort of armywide looks. The thing it can lose out on is that when you have finite buffs to give out sometimes a less efficient thing is so much more expensive it makes sense. Plus you don’t see absolute numbers, so doing both is good. 
I think they have done a pretty ok job with the shooting. There are definitely draws to each choice. Some are just more niche than others. I think the aelf and human options benefit a bit more though, since duardin are a lot more limited. It feels like duardin are a very spiked distribution. Rune lords and hammerers seem both very strong. After that it’s a bit of a jump. I’m not sure what to make of iron breakers. It feels like you need an officer with both units, so you are comparing hammerers who are a lot more damage but still have a 3 up and 5 up ward with iron breakers who have a better ward and are 20 points less, but just do so much less damage. After those 2 or 3 units I think the bottom falls out of dwarfs. Whereas I think there are a lot more aelf and human choices.
 

[loky100]

Yeah Dwarfs are just so limited in other picks. I went with a runelord with 20 irondrakes and 20 hammers, like you said Ironbreakers are just worse in nearly every aspect.

The thing I found with my game is that getting tagged in combat just turns off your shooting and it hurts so much now.

I think I'll make a close combat army next we got a lot that is good.

Human Cav with a hurricanum and 5+ ward from Zenestra is pretty tanky.

Runelord with hammers

Sorc with executioners

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Good posts all around, just some thoughts:

 

11 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Fusil-Major on Warhulk

He's not amazing for his own shooting, he's about a third as efficient on a per point basis as fusiliers. In order for him to work as a force multiplier you are looking at 3 units of fusiliers, and using your AoA elsewhere. Thats not to say he won't do anything, he'll plink away at heroes and he is just alarmingly tough, with 3+ ignore rend 1. He is also a hero, for orders.

IMO, the big points in favour for this guy are:

• Bonus hero
• Board-wide buff that doesn't use command points
• Buffs the human shooting units that are usually difficult to buff (Cannons and Tanks)

He may not be very points efficient, but just having a guy who can hang out with your Fusiliers to give them Orders and buff any other human shooting you have on the board seems like it can overcome that. Also, it's just a really fun model.

11 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Ironweld Great Cannon

The model is really cool. It has the longest range, sort of (Dark Riders aren't quite as much damage, but factoring in move, can shoot further). Its probably still the most compact and least vulnerable to chip damage. It doesn't take buffs particularly well, and is not high damage.

I like the Cannon. The cannonball is a credible long range threat, and the Grapeshot is a slightly stronger shooting mode if enemy units get close. If you are building a shooting regiment, after 20 Fusiliers and a Master of Ballistics hero to buff them, I think the Cannon looks more attractive than a second Fusilier block. Fusiliers suffer from diminishing returns, because the second unit is way harder to buff than the first. The cannon may not take buffs well, but looking at it from a different point of view, you also only need to give it +1 to hit to basically max out its buff potential.

On the comparison between Dark Riders and other shooting: Even though Dark Riders have a 24" threat range, between their movement and shooting range, moving up to shoot means they are almost certainly getting charged the following turn even by the slowest units in the game. Cannons or even Fusiliers are probably safe from charges for at least one, if not two rounds. I think the difference is worth keeping in mind when comparing threat ranges.

11 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Irondrakes 

Technically these guys don't need to stay still, but I just don't think the damage numbers are there. Even if you are having to move dark shards, or shoot wildercorps away from cover, they just don't do as much damage. They do have the best armour, but I just don't think its worth it. I think you'd have to be building heavily into duardin to want to take these guys. The 3+/3+ profile also doesn't benefit as much from buffs are the 4+/4+ one. 

I think the niche of these guys is that if you are already bringing a Runelord + Hammerers, you can add in a bunch of them without increasing drops. I would not open a dwarf regiment just to get access to them, but the Runelord is our only generic priest and that may be worth the extra drop. At that point, I think also adding in some Irondrakes is not the worst. I am definitely rating them higher than all the other dwarf units.

Also, their mortal wound bomb does up to 6 damage every shooting phase, not just once per turn. You need to be within 6", though. I guess they are really telling you "put 10 of these guys behind your Hammerer blob", huh?

 

6 hours ago, loky100 said:

Yeah Dwarfs are just so limited in other picks. I went with a runelord with 20 irondrakes and 20 hammers, like you said Ironbreakers are just worse in nearly every aspect.

The thing I found with my game is that getting tagged in combat just turns off your shooting and it hurts so much now.

I think I'll make a close combat army next we got a lot that is good.

Human Cav with a hurricanum and 5+ ward from Zenestra is pretty tanky.

Runelord with hammers

Sorc with executioners

I want to try a cavalry list eventually to get my Hurricanum on the table, but it's kind of hard for me to decide whether I want the wizard or non-wizard version. The utility of having the 3d6 charge spell and the +1 to hit on the same model seems pretty good, and I think pinning the opponent with 10 Cavaliers early and then hitting them with the Storm of Shemtek every turn also seems quite potent. On the other hand, the non-hero version of the Hurricanum can join a regiment led by a Cavalier Marshall, which would also be nice to have.

[Satyrical Sophist]

44 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Good posts all around, just some thoughts:

 

IMO, the big points in favour for this guy are:

• Bonus hero
• Board-wide buff that doesn't use command points
• Buffs the human shooting units that are usually difficult to buff (Cannons and Tanks)

He may not be very points efficient, but just having a guy who can hang out with your Fusiliers to give them Orders and buff any other human shooting you have on the board seems like it can overcome that. Also, it's just a really fun model.

I like the Cannon. The cannonball is a credible long range threat, and the Grapeshot is a slightly stronger shooting mode if enemy units get close. If you are building a shooting regiment, after 20 Fusiliers and a Master of Ballistics hero to buff them, I think the Cannon looks more attractive than a second Fusilier block. Fusiliers suffer from diminishing returns, because the second unit is way harder to buff than the first. The cannon may not take buffs well, but looking at it from a different point of view, you also only need to give it +1 to hit to basically max out its buff potential.

On the comparison between Dark Riders and other shooting: Even though Dark Riders have a 24" threat range, between their movement and shooting range, moving up to shoot means they are almost certainly getting charged the following turn even by the slowest units in the game. Cannons or even Fusiliers are probably safe from charges for at least one, if not two rounds. I think the difference is worth keeping in mind when comparing threat ranges.

I think the niche of these guys is that if you are already bringing a Runelord + Hammerers, you can add in a bunch of them without increasing drops. I would not open a dwarf regiment just to get access to them, but the Runelord is our only generic priest and that may be worth the extra drop. At that point, I think also adding in some Irondrakes is not the worst. I am definitely rating them higher than all the other dwarf units.

Also, their mortal wound bomb does up to 6 damage every shooting phase, not just once per turn. You need to be within 6", though. I guess they are really telling you "put 10 of these guys behind your Hammerer blob", huh?

 

I want to try a cavalry list eventually to get my Hurricanum on the table, but it's kind of hard for me to decide whether I want the wizard or non-wizard version. The utility of having the 3d6 charge spell and the +1 to hit on the same model seems pretty good, and I think pinning the opponent with 10 Cavaliers early and then hitting them with the Storm of Shemtek every turn also seems quite potent. On the other hand, the non-hero version of the Hurricanum can join a regiment led by a Cavalier Marshall, which would also be nice to have.

Oh, I don't think the Fusil-Major is terrible, he just does involve a heavy investment info human shooting. I probably should have been higher on him, I was just a bit surprised by how many fusiliers you'd need for him to improve output just on his own, not including orders or traits.

For the cannon, I'm really not sure I agree with that point. A buffed cannon only outdamages UNBUFFED fusiliers Vs a 3+ or better save, and it's not by a very significant amount. It's easier to hide than fusiliers though.

I think you are misunderstanding me on the dark riders. They are definitely dragoons this edition, they want to be shooting then charging and fighting as well. The combat output isn't that far behind cavaliers. I think if they are getting charged it's after charging something, and they can use power through and eot retreat to be nowhere near.

I absolutely missed that the irondrakes bomb ability was once per turn, not game and also that it's within 6. That definitely is another niche. An expected 3 mortal wounds to a target is a pretty big benefit. It feels like a unit of these covering a runelords flank with Hammerers out in front is a lot more interesting with that. Particularly since a 3+ save really isn't bad. You don't WANT them in combat, but if they need to survive a turn for the Hammerers to turn that badonkadonk around and murder the charging unit isn't too bad with something like AoD. If you are running other shooting then trying free them could work? Do you have to do all shooting abilities before you start shooting now, or is that just combat?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

27 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Oh, I don't think the Fusil-Major is terrible, he just does involve a heavy investment info human shooting. I probably should have been higher on him, I was just a bit surprised by how many fusiliers you'd need for him to improve output just on his own, not including orders or traits.

For the cannon, I'm really not sure I agree with that point. A buffed cannon only outdamages UNBUFFED fusiliers Vs a 3+ or better save, and it's not by a very significant amount. It's easier to hide than fusiliers though.

I think the cannon is overall not as good as your first big shooting block, but kind of similar to (maybe situationally better than) a second shooting block that you can't (reliably) buff. Really depends on your regiment setup, though. The cannon has a big advantage to 10 Fusiliers in the painting meta, at least.

 

27 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I think you are misunderstanding me on the dark riders. They are definitely dragoons this edition, they want to be shooting then charging and fighting as well. The combat output isn't that far behind cavaliers. I think if they are getting charged it's after charging something, and they can use power through and eot retreat to be nowhere near.

I didn't think you were treating Dark Riders like a pure shooting option

Just want to add some considerations to the conversation that I think are relevant (also to the benefit of other readers of this thread). I like Dark Riders, too. They would probably be one of the reason for me to consider including Dark Elves.

 

27 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I absolutely missed that the irondrakes bomb ability was once per turn, not game and also that it's within 6. That definitely is another niche. An expected 3 mortal wounds to a target is a pretty big benefit. It feels like a unit of these covering a runelords flank with Hammerers out in front is a lot more interesting with that. Particularly since a 3+ save really isn't bad. You don't WANT them in combat, but if they need to survive a turn for the Hammerers to turn that badonkadonk around and murder the charging unit isn't too bad with something like AoD. If you are running other shooting then trying free them could work? Do you have to do all shooting abilities before you start shooting now, or is that just combat?

I think the sequencing restriction is only in the combat phase. The bomb is pretty nice. It has some advantages since it is a shooting phase ability, but not a shooting attack, like getting "free" run and shoot and getting around Guarded Hero.

Edited July 15 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[loky100]

Here is my list I think I'll run for the weekend.

The idea is melee run up and hold the line while cannons just keep blasting. Having a 27" range should hit most things.

Runelord

20 Hammers

 

Sorc

20 Executioners

 

Fusil-Major

4 Cannons

 

Freeguild Marshal on Griffon (Brazier of Holy Flame and Grizzled Veterans)

Freeguild Command Corps

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 hours ago, loky100 said:

Here is my list I think I'll run for the weekend.

The idea is melee run up and hold the line while cannons just keep blasting. Having a 27" range should hit most things.

Runelord

20 Hammers

 

Sorc

20 Executioners

 

Fusil-Major

4 Cannons

 

Freeguild Marshal on Griffon (Brazier of Holy Flame and Grizzled Veterans)

Freeguild Command Corps

 

Definitely give this list a try, because at this point nobody really knows what works or not.

I would expect this list to struggle with battle tactics and battle plans that require mobility, but you have to see how it performs in practice. I would love to see a mixed list like this do well.

[Heaven_lord]

Thank you very much for all your analyses, which have allowed me to put my first list on paper. However, I now find myself at a crossroads with two game options: either to strengthen my gunline with the Major and a cannon, or to enhance my magic and table presence with a battlemage and 20 Steelhelms. Which option would you recommend? Many thanks in advance!

Ironweld guild / Collegiate arcane expedition 

Morbid conjugation lore

Regiment general 
- Thalia
- 10 Cavaliers
- 11 Wildercorps

Régiment 2 :
- Marshall and relic envoy
- Command corps
- 20 Fusilliers

Regiment 3 :
- Pontifex

Regiment 4 :
- Warforger

Option 1 :
- Major on Ogor + Canon in the general’s regiment

Option 2 :
- 20 Steelhelms in regiment 2 
- Battle mage in a new regiment 

Edited July 16 by Heaven_lord

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

26 minutes ago, Heaven_lord said:

Thank you very much for all your analyses, which have allowed me to put my first list on paper. However, I now find myself at a crossroads with two game options: either to strengthen my gunline with the Major and a cannon, or to enhance my magic and table presence with a battlemage and 20 Steelhelms. Which option would you recommend? Many thanks in advance!

Ironweld guild / Collegiate arcane expedition 

Morbid conjugation lore

Regiment general 
- Thalia
- 10 Cavaliers
- 11 Wildercorps

Régiment 2 :
- Marshall and relic envoy
- Command corps
- 20 Fusilliers

Regiment 3 :
- Pontifex

Regiment 4 :
- Warforger

Option 1 :
- Major on Ogor + Canon in the general’s regiment

Option 2 :
- 20 Steelhelms in regiment 2 
- Battle mage in a new regiment 

Super nice miniatures, love the blue.

I think whether or not taking the Battlemage and going Collegiate Expedition makes sense depends a lot on your game plan. If you have a spell or Manifestation that you think is really crucial, I think you can consider it. Powering out the Purple Sun with +2 to cast from the Battlemage sounds like it might be worth trying. I think the extra Steelhelm bodies also sound pretty useful.

I don't think you can go wrong with either choice at this point, though. Keep in mind that stacking units into your general's regiment gives your opponent easier battle tactics and more targets for that one honour guard ability, though.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

After seeing some more warscrolls and getting a better impression of damage numbers and the like, I sadly have to say that I feel the Steam Tank list is not the way forward. The damage is just not there anymore: It used to be that the Tanks were kind of respectable if they got both their shooting and melee damage. Now, their shooting is kind of bad to the point that even if they get both they are not that scary.

My first starting point was to include a Steam Tank regiment in my list, using Steam Tank Commander and two regular Tanks. That comes out at 940 points, so a hefty price tag. My issue is not necessarily that they are expensive, though. It is that I don't see a good way for the three tanks to contribute to a game plan.

I am thinking that I want to shift gears and not build a list that can support tank spam, but rather a list in which tank spam supports what else the list wants to do. I think the Steam Tank still has a big point in its favour, which is its high health and armour save. So I am thinking that their role should not be as main troops, but rather to defensively support infantry units in capturing points. They are fast enough that they can cover some ground and take objectives until Steelhelms get to them to help capture/hold them.

So what I want to try is to go down to two tanks. Either a Tank Commander and regular or two regular tanks. The Tank Commander is a little better than the regular tank offensively, and I think having a Tank Commander general with Tank honour guard could be good. With the -1 attacks debuff, the Commander should be able to live a lot better against infantry units that would usually smash him (like those with Crit(Mortal)), and having just two tanks with defensive buffs in my General's Regiment would make getting Slay the Entourage pretty difficult for my opponent. The 300 points could be spent on other good stuff, like Potifex Zenestra, who I previously cut.

The other idea I have is to switch out the Tank Commander for a Cavalier-Marshal and 5 Cavaliers, which would keep the list structure similar but give it a lot more melee presence.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

After workshopping things a bit, I have arrived at the following list for now:

Ironweld Guild Army

General's Regiment
Freeguild Marshal	Prayer Book or Brazier	130
Steam Tank		300
Steam Tank		300
Fusiliers	reinforced	240
Fusil Major	Master of Ballistics	180
Regiment 2
Alchemite		110
Steelhelms		100
Steelhelms		100
Regiment 3
Zenestra		240
Command Corps		190
Flagellants		100
	Total	1990

 

The idea is to group the units like this:

Shooting Castle

Marshal, Fusil-Major, Fusiliers, Command Corps

These guys hold the home objective. The Fusiliers probably get the +1/+1 Honour Guard trait. This opens up the possibility to shoot on 3s and 3s off-turn (double Covering Fire from the Fusil Major and the Fusiliers), potentially giving "strikes last" to opponents trying to charge the castle. Otherwise, Master of Ballistics ensures they reliably shoot on 3s and 3s on their own turn.

The castle is hard to whittle down at range. The Command Corps is a reasonably hard target at 4+/5++ and enables double rally if needed. With the Brazier, they or the Fusiliers restore 1d3 models per turn out of combat. Fusiliers generally don't have their 5+ ward in the shooting phase, but at least negate rend 1 and should generally out-range most enemy shooting. In melee, charging them shuts off their ranged attacks, but 20 of them will almost completely cover an objective and are super hard to kill at 4+/5++ negate rend 1. I think people will underestimate them and get stuck not capturing my home objective for several turns. And if I manage to drive an attack back, everything can get healed back up pretty quickly.

Tank Group 1

Steam Tank, Steelhelms, Alchemite

These guys go out and try to capture points early. Best case, the Tank and Steelhelms sit on a point with a 5+ ward and +1 to saves to a relevant unit from the Alchemite. The Alchemite also tries to cast Cindercloud where possible, further lowering enemy damage.

Tank Group 2

Steam Tank, Steelhelms

These guys get less support than the other group, but thanks to the Relic Envoy ability I should still be able to give them crucial Hold the Line and Advance in Formation orders with some careful positioning. Steam Tanks can be reasonably fast turn 1, since they get run and shoot on their warscroll.

Zenestra

Zenestra, Flagellants

Zenestra can go where she is needed for capturing or battle tactics, use her warscroll prayer, unbind spells and be generally useful. I take the Flagellants because it was either them or more Steelhelms. Pinging back mortal wounds on death on a 4+ seems kind of good.

 

I like that this list runs enough heroes to get all the orders I will probably need, but still manages to stay at 3 drops. It fits in 2 or 3 prayers, 1 cast and 2 unbinds. That's not enough to play the Manifestation game, but it is enough to effectively fight back against it.

The biggest weakness of the list, IMO, is that it has a very weak offensive presence. It needs to win by capturing objectives early and bunkering down on them, while getting value from the Fusiliers ranged attacks.

 

There are two variants of this list that I potentially like.

The first replaces Zenestra and her Flagellants with a Cavalier-Marshall and 5 Cavaliers. This gives the list a reasonably mobile melee hammer and allows you pull the Steam Tanks out of the general's regiment (makes Slay the Entourage harder). It comes at the cost of two prayers and an unbind, however. For this list, I would lean towards use the Prayer Book instead of the Brazier.

The second replaces Zenestra and the Flagellants and one unit of Steelhelms with a Rune Lord and 20 Hammerers. This gives you a very credible and self-sufficient melee threat. The only reason I am not doing it is because I don't want to buy into Dwarves at this point.

[loky100]

I like it. Very much shooting heavy and I think that would work.

Tankys are who would of guessed tanky so I think the 2+ 5+ ward would hold the line quite well while the Fus shoot them up

[Heaven_lord]

21 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

After workshopping things a bit, I have arrived at the following list for now:

Ironweld Guild Army

General's Regiment
Freeguild Marshal	Prayer Book or Brazier	130
Steam Tank		300
Steam Tank		300
Fusiliers	reinforced	240
Fusil Major	Master of Ballistics	180
Regiment 2
Alchemite		110
Steelhelms		100
Steelhelms		100
Regiment 3
Zenestra		240
Command Corps		190
Flagellants		100
	Total	1990

 

The idea is to group the units like this:

Shooting Castle

Marshal, Fusil-Major, Fusiliers, Command Corps

These guys hold the home objective. The Fusiliers probably get the +1/+1 Honour Guard trait. This opens up the possibility to shoot on 3s and 3s off-turn (double Covering Fire from the Fusil Major and the Fusiliers), potentially giving "strikes last" to opponents trying to charge the castle. Otherwise, Master of Ballistics ensures they reliably shoot on 3s and 3s on their own turn.

The castle is hard to whittle down at range. The Command Corps is a reasonably hard target at 4+/5++ and enables double rally if needed. With the Brazier, they or the Fusiliers restore 1d3 models per turn out of combat. Fusiliers generally don't have their 5+ ward in the shooting phase, but at least negate rend 1 and should generally out-range most enemy shooting. In melee, charging them shuts off their ranged attacks, but 20 of them will almost completely cover an objective and are super hard to kill at 4+/5++ negate rend 1. I think people will underestimate them and get stuck not capturing my home objective for several turns. And if I manage to drive an attack back, everything can get healed back up pretty quickly.

Tank Group 1

Steam Tank, Steelhelms, Alchemite

These guys go out and try to capture points early. Best case, the Tank and Steelhelms sit on a point with a 5+ ward and +1 to saves to a relevant unit from the Alchemite. The Alchemite also tries to cast Cindercloud where possible, further lowering enemy damage.

Tank Group 2

Steam Tank, Steelhelms

These guys get less support than the other group, but thanks to the Relic Envoy ability I should still be able to give them crucial Hold the Line and Advance in Formation orders with some careful positioning. Steam Tanks can be reasonably fast turn 1, since they get run and shoot on their warscroll.

Zenestra

Zenestra, Flagellants

Zenestra can go where she is needed for capturing or battle tactics, use her warscroll prayer, unbind spells and be generally useful. I take the Flagellants because it was either them or more Steelhelms. Pinging back mortal wounds on death on a 4+ seems kind of good.

 

I like that this list runs enough heroes to get all the orders I will probably need, but still manages to stay at 3 drops. It fits in 2 or 3 prayers, 1 cast and 2 unbinds. That's not enough to play the Manifestation game, but it is enough to effectively fight back against it.

The biggest weakness of the list, IMO, is that it has a very weak offensive presence. It needs to win by capturing objectives early and bunkering down on them, while getting value from the Fusiliers ranged attacks.

 

There are two variants of this list that I potentially like.

The first replaces Zenestra and her Flagellants with a Cavalier-Marshall and 5 Cavaliers. This gives the list a reasonably mobile melee hammer and allows you pull the Steam Tanks out of the general's regiment (makes Slay the Entourage harder). It comes at the cost of two prayers and an unbind, however. For this list, I would lean towards use the Prayer Book instead of the Brazier.

The second replaces Zenestra and the Flagellants and one unit of Steelhelms with a Rune Lord and 20 Hammerers. This gives you a very credible and self-sufficient melee threat. The only reason I am not doing it is because I don't want to buy into Dwarves at this point.

Very interesting ! What’s your reasoning behind the Major on Ogor ? It seems pricey for just +1  to hit during opponent turn ?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 minutes ago, Heaven_lord said:

Very interesting ! What’s your reasoning behind the Major on Ogor ? It seems pricey for just +1  to hit during opponent turn ?

I think he has a few positives that make him worth it even though he is expensive.

First off, the +1 to hit on the opponent's turn, I think, is actually pretty big.

Save	Fusiliers (-1 to hit)	Fusiliers normal	Fusiliers (+1/+1)	Fusil-Major (-1 to hit)	Fusil-Major normal
2+	2.28	3.42	6.07	0.72	0.94
3+	3.42	5.13	9.11	1.08	1.42
4+	4.56	6.83	12.15	1.44	1.89
5+	5.69	8.54	15.19	1.81	2.36
6+	6.83	10.25	18.22	2.17	2.83
-	6.83	10.25	18.22	2.17	2.83

 

Covering Fire from Fusiliers at -1 to hit just kind of sucks. You will remove, like, one 3+ save cavalry model or a maybe 4-5 4+ save infantry dudes with it. Add in the Fusil-Major, and between his damage and the +1 to hit, you are already looking at ~6 damage against a 3+ save and ~8 against a 4+. And if you get the Honour Guard bonus as well, that's closer to ~10 damage against 3+ and ~13-14 against infantry. So big numbers.

During my own turn, I think the Fusil-Major still provides some value, since his buffs are board wide and you get them for free. So he can be used to remove -1 to hit penalties if my opponent has them, and buff the shooting attacks of Steam Tanks without having to be close to them.

The Major also provides value by being a hero that doesn't increase drops. I want a hero next to the Fusiliers at all times so that I can always give them Advance in Formation, Hold the Line and Suppressing Fire whenever they need it. Suppressing Fire is another piece of the puzzle that makes the shooting castle tougher than it might look. If I can Strikes Last is I am fairly confident the Command Corps and nearby heroes will be able to grind down most attackers. Since Suppressive Fire works off models removed, I think even small damage boosts matter a lot.

Having both the Fusil-Major and the Freeguild Marshal around means I can order a Steam Tank to move (Relic Envoy), then order the Fusiliers to move after. And then the Warhulk still has his order to move them and another unit again, or make them use Suppressive Fire, depending on the circumstances. When I get charged, between the two heroes I can give the Warhulk and the Fusiliers Hold the Line (the command corps and Marshal already have a 5+ ward). I think that utility is just really good.

Finally, the model is just really fun and I have been looking for an excuse to get it.

[Thugmullet]

On 7/16/2024 at 11:46 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

After seeing some more warscrolls and getting a better impression of damage numbers and the like, I sadly have to say that I feel the Steam Tank list is not the way forward. The damage is just not there anymore: It used to be that the Tanks were kind of respectable if they got both their shooting and melee damage. Now, their shooting is kind of bad to the point that even if they get both they are not that scary.

My first starting point was to include a Steam Tank regiment in my list, using Steam Tank Commander and two regular Tanks. That comes out at 940 points, so a hefty price tag. My issue is not necessarily that they are expensive, though. It is that I don't see a good way for the three tanks to contribute to a game plan.

I am thinking that I want to shift gears and not build a list that can support tank spam, but rather a list in which tank spam supports what else the list wants to do. I think the Steam Tank still has a big point in its favour, which is its high health and armour save. So I am thinking that their role should not be as main troops, but rather to defensively support infantry units in capturing points. They are fast enough that they can cover some ground and take objectives until Steelhelms get to them to help capture/hold them.

So what I want to try is to go down to two tanks. Either a Tank Commander and regular or two regular tanks. The Tank Commander is a little better than the regular tank offensively, and I think having a Tank Commander general with Tank honour guard could be good. With the -1 attacks debuff, the Commander should be able to live a lot better against infantry units that would usually smash him (like those with Crit(Mortal)), and having just two tanks with defensive buffs in my General's Regiment would make getting Slay the Entourage pretty difficult for my opponent. The 300 points could be spent on other good stuff, like Potifex Zenestra, who I previously cut.

The other idea I have is to switch out the Tank Commander for a Cavalier-Marshal and 5 Cavaliers, which would keep the list structure similar but give it a lot more melee presence.

I was just saying to someone the other day I had to laugh at the Steamtank. I painted it 4 years ago and never could run it but then suddenly it was in every game I played. Then AOS4 is out and I suspect it is back on the shelf for 4 years again. Oh well. One canon shot, no spell to make it immune to rend, can't shoot in combat. It has no role in the army Anymore. It would go back on the shelf if it was same points. But at 330 points.. Its useless now I think.

 

On the other hand I think Hamerers are one hell of a hammer now. One drop with 20 hamerers and a Runelord is 420 points. You get a priest plus 20 wounds on a 3+ and a 5+ ward doing potentially 60 damage 2 attacks at rend 2 (3 if you want to risk generals battalion) and with a command, base 7 inch move. No extra points needed on a screen.. I think there the hot sauce this time round.