Ejecutor Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 A list from a tourney of 12 where someone from my CoS Whatsapp Group ended 4th winning two and losing the last one against Khorne: Quote Cities (1950 points) ARMY Grand Alliance Order Cities of Sigmar Fortress-city Defenders 2000 Points Limit Drops: 3 Spell Lore - Spells of the Collegiate Arcane Prayer Lore - Scriptures of Sigmar Regiments General's Regiment Freeguild Cavalier-Marshal (170) • General Freeguild Cavaliers (340) • Reinforced Freeguild Fusiliers (240) • Reinforced Fusil-Major on Ogor Warhulk (180) • Master of Ballistics Regiment 1 Alchemite Warforger (110) Freeguild Steelhelms (100) Freeguild Steelhelms (100) Wildercorps Hunters (130) Regiment 2 Freeguild Marshal and Relic Envoy (130) • Sacred Tome • 1x Heirloom Warhammer Freeguild Command Corps (190) Ironweld Great Cannon (130) Ironweld Great Cannon (130) Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App Exported with App Version: 1.0.1 Data Version: v128 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loky100 Posted July 21 Share Posted July 21 Played a game this weekend against Gargents. I brought 4x Cannons and a major to give them 1+ to hit. They blew up a giant nearly every turn and with only being 600 points of my army was quite a bit of damage. Grizzled veteran was a great upgrade with so many things wounding on 2's now making it a 4+ really reduced their damage. Executioners failed their 3d6 charge was 13" which meant they got charged the next turn and nearly all died. They can deal the damage when charging but when charged they just die. Hammers are still great just keep taking a beating and don't falter. Funny though cause the way the turn works. I buffed them all up with + to save and -1 to wound. He saw all that and just did his 4+ does 4d6 mortal since I had so many buffs which were all useless then haha. A big factor to me winning was a 6" redeploy which made him fail his charge. Was a great game I'm really enjoying 4th edition. I think Cities has many possibilities which normally means we do well for a long time. Also on the chat about drops. I'm thinking we need 4 or 5 drops for cities and just realize you will never get to decided who goes first. I played most of 3rd that way and worked out quite well for me. Do the order battle tactic first with 4 quarters using a fast unit on both sides. Then just go from there, if you castle up alpha charges don't do much, and double turns don't do too much either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 22 Author Share Posted July 22 8 hours ago, loky100 said: Played a game this weekend against Gargents. I brought 4x Cannons and a major to give them 1+ to hit. They blew up a giant nearly every turn and with only being 600 points of my army was quite a bit of damage. Grizzled veteran was a great upgrade with so many things wounding on 2's now making it a 4+ really reduced their damage. Executioners failed their 3d6 charge was 13" which meant they got charged the next turn and nearly all died. They can deal the damage when charging but when charged they just die. Hammers are still great just keep taking a beating and don't falter. Funny though cause the way the turn works. I buffed them all up with + to save and -1 to wound. He saw all that and just did his 4+ does 4d6 mortal since I had so many buffs which were all useless then haha. A big factor to me winning was a 6" redeploy which made him fail his charge. Was a great game I'm really enjoying 4th edition. I think Cities has many possibilities which normally means we do well for a long time. Also on the chat about drops. I'm thinking we need 4 or 5 drops for cities and just realize you will never get to decided who goes first. I played most of 3rd that way and worked out quite well for me. Do the order battle tactic first with 4 quarters using a fast unit on both sides. Then just go from there, if you castle up alpha charges don't do much, and double turns don't do too much either. Thanks for the insights. I am somewhat surprised to hear that the cannons did well. Looking at the math for them, they didn't seem that interesting. But I suppose just having that 24" high-rend shot has some good utility in itself, even if the expected damage is kinda low. For Executioners, them just dying to the charge is kind of what I am afraid of. I am always a bit hesitant to include slow, frail infantry hammers, because they are often really hard to make work. Maybe the play is to counter-charge with them or to include a Dreadspear screen? Personally, I am definitely back to high drops. I have a game planned for Wednesday with a 5 drop list. I hope the Steam Tank Commander proves to be good enough for future lists. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loky100 Posted July 22 Share Posted July 22 Tell us how it goes. I think 4 or 5 drops with cities is the way. I've been thinking about running Callis and Toll with the deep strike, a bunch of wounds also can kill wizards and priest easily. They might have a place and can give orders out to themselves. Also kinda tanky with a 4+ 5+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lost Sigmarite Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 I'm putting together a list for post-Spearhead 1000 pts games. New Recruit doesn't have 4E yet so here goes the old school calculator list : R1 : Freeguild Marshal 130 (master of ballistics, sacred tome) - Steelhelms 100 - Steelhelms 100 - Cavaliers 170 - Great Cannon 130 R2 : Warforger 110 - Fusiliers 130 - Fusiliers 130 Total 1000 pts Subfaction will be probably the +3" range one, even if the the +2" move one can look nice too. I could switch to the brazier of holy flame if I want it but I feel like the sacred tome is good to learn how priests work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 hour ago, The Lost Sigmarite said: New Recruit doesn't have 4E yet I think it does? Unless they rolled it back I have used it to build a 4ed list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 24 Author Share Posted July 24 15 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said: I'm putting together a list for post-Spearhead 1000 pts games. New Recruit doesn't have 4E yet so here goes the old school calculator list : R1 : Freeguild Marshal 130 (master of ballistics, sacred tome) - Steelhelms 100 - Steelhelms 100 - Cavaliers 170 - Great Cannon 130 R2 : Warforger 110 - Fusiliers 130 - Fusiliers 130 Total 1000 pts Subfaction will be probably the +3" range one, even if the the +2" move one can look nice too. I could switch to the brazier of holy flame if I want it but I feel like the sacred tome is good to learn how priests work. Why are you splitting your Fusiliers? Given you run Master of Ballistics, I think running them as a unit of 20 would better maximize buff efficiency. Anyway, I am bringing this list to my game today: Cities of Sigmar Ironweld Guild Army Steam Tank Commander 340 [General] Alchemite Warforger 110 - 10 x Freeguild Steelhelms 100 Freeguild Marshal and Relic Envoy 130 [Sacred Tome] [Master of Ballistics] - 10 x Freeguild Cavaliers 340 Pontifex Zenestra, Matriarch of the Great Wheel 240 - 20 x Freeguild Fusiliers 240 - 6 x Freeguild Command Corps 190 Galen ven Denst 210 - 1 x Doralia ven Denst 0 - 10 x Freeguild Steelhelms 100 Spells of the Collegiate Arcane Scriptures of Sigmar 2000/2000pts 5 drops I am trying to do two things here, mainly. 1.: Get long-term value from the Master of Ballistics Fusilier block and get an early charge (on my first turn, if possible) from the Cavaliers. For this game, I will be going against Kruleboyz and we are not using the Honour Guard rules. This is why my Tank Commander is alone in the general's regiment, to make Slay the Entourage harder. I am running a few experimental units, just to see how they do. The Steam Tank is one of them. I don't think he will match up well against Kruleboyz (mortal wounds everywhere), but I want to see if I can run him as a support hero for Cavaliers in place of the Cavalier-Marshal who actually doesn't really do all that much outside of the list building stage. This list has enough Orders and other buffs to pretty much guarantee a big damage early charge, I think (Zenestras wheel effect on her prayer, the Alchemite with Speed of the Twin-Tailed comet, the Relic Envoy to deliver an extra Order without a hero nearby...). I am hoping to get into a good target early with Strike Them Down active. Zenestra is in there for the prayers, but looking at the prayer lore and her warscroll prayers, I don't know how much I want her in my lists, specifically. It really feels like I should have a 5+ ward in a lot of situations that matter independently of her prayer, unlike last edition. But I know that anti-magic is important, and her unbind and 1d3 wizard bomb are pretty cool to have. I am considering replacing her with a Battlemage on Hurricanum, which would support the early Cavalier charge better. I still feel my lists lack damage. I am also curious about the viability of the Collegiate Expedition subfaction. By going high drops, it feels like running a list with some pretty credible casting is not impossible. I kind of want to try a 10 Battlemage meme list, too. The ven Densts are just here to see how they perform this edition. Two extra orders are fun and they are a fast moving piece for battle tactics and a credible threat against wizards. I think a casual game is a good place to test them. To be honest, I am not sure they bring enough to the table for competitive, but they are cool models so I want to bring them at least sometimes. This army is Ironweld Guild because I think the Fusilier block really benefits from the extra range and I have a bunch of other incidental small shooting attacks, as well. I think I don't need the 2" movement bonus from Dawnbringer Crusade. I don't really need to spend my orders on anything except Advance first turn anyway, and I have 6 orders, and they all get to advance two units each because I am running only humans. Collegiate Expedition might be a valid choice in a list with 3+ casts. I don't really rate Fortress City Defenders that highly. Unless an alpha strike meta becomes incredibly widespread, I think the other formations are better. Let's see if my plans work out this evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thugmullet Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 Let us know how it goes please. Iv got my first 4.0 game in a few days. Would like to know if the Ven Denst can pull there weight at the 200+ point range. I'm not sure there worth that.. Love the models so would very much want to hear they did great. Also I'm thinking the cav marshal can well be worth his 170. The wording of his cav ability got changed. He doesn't just allow the cav to fight immediately after but gives them proper strike first now. I think that's a big boost if you run him with a group of 10 cavs and you got another hammer going in somewhere else in the same phase. Finally very keen to see what you make of the steam tank. At his new price I'm skeptical, but again, would love my skepticism proved wrong. On 7/19/2024 at 12:39 AM, Neil Arthur Hotep said: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lost Sigmarite Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Why are you splitting your Fusiliers? Given you run Master of Ballistics, I think running them as a unit of 20 would better maximize buff efficiency. I’m not really mastering the new rules yet, I thought you needed as many slots in a regiment filled before reinforcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 24 Author Share Posted July 24 24 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said: I’m not really mastering the new rules yet, I thought you needed as many slots in a regiment filled before reinforcing. Not that I am aware. Quote 3.3 REINFORCED UNITS When you add a unit to your army roster, you can add it as a reinforced unit. A reinforced unit has twice as many models as its minimum unit size and costs twice as many points. If a unit has a minimum unit size of 1, it cannot be reinforced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 (edited) 22 hours ago, Thugmullet said: Let us know how it goes please. Iv got my first 4.0 game in a few days. Would like to know if the Ven Denst can pull there weight at the 200+ point range. I'm not sure there worth that.. Love the models so would very much want to hear they did great. Also I'm thinking the cav marshal can well be worth his 170. The wording of his cav ability got changed. He doesn't just allow the cav to fight immediately after but gives them proper strike first now. I think that's a big boost if you run him with a group of 10 cavs and you got another hammer going in somewhere else in the same phase. Finally very keen to see what you make of the steam tank. At his new price I'm skeptical, but again, would love my skepticism proved wrong. So, I got blown out pretty badly turn 1. But I think it was decidedly due to bad plays on my part at the table, not due to decisions during the list building stage. My opponent brought Kruleboyz. Lists below: Spoiler Kruleboyz Middul Finga Snatchaboss on Sludgeraker Beast 320 [General] - 6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz 220 - 6 x Man-skewer Boltboyz 220 - 1 x Beast-skewer Killbow 160 Killaboss on Corpse-rippa Vulcha 290 [Slippery Skumbag] - 20 x Gutrippaz 340 - 10 x Gutrippaz 170 Swampcalla Shaman with Pot-grot 120 [Swamp Staff] - 7 x Kruleboyz Monsta-killaz 120 Lore of the Swamp Morbid Conjuration 1960/2000pts 3 drops Cities of Sigmar Ironweld Guild Army Steam Tank Commander 340 [General] Alchemite Warforger 110 - 10 x Freeguild Steelhelms 100 Freeguild Marshal and Relic Envoy 130 [Sacred Tome] [Master of Ballistics] - 10 x Freeguild Cavaliers 340 Pontifex Zenestra, Matriarch of the Great Wheel 240 - 20 x Freeguild Fusiliers 240 - 6 x Freeguild Command Corps 190 Galen ven Denst 210 - 1 x Doralia ven Denst 0 - 10 x Freeguild Steelhelms 100 Spells of the Collegiate Arcane Primal Energies Scriptures of Sigmar 2000/2000pts 5 drops Battle Plan is Border War Deployment: Spoiler My opponent is mostly bunched up in the middle. I have the Fusilier castle with Zenestra in the middle; Steam Tank, Alchemite and Cavaliers on the left and the Ven Densts and some Steelhelms on the right. Turn 1: My opponent chooses to go first. He picks Take the Center, pushes everything foreward a bit and takes the flank points. Pretty standard stuff. I choose not to counter charge, because I didn't feel like gambling 2 CP on that 50/50 charge. He summons the Gravetide with is Shaman. I'll talk about Endless Spells later, but TL;DR they are good and pretty annoying. The Gravetide bonks my Steelhelms a bit and annoyingly puts a bunch of stuff into combat, including the Fusiliers. The Boltboyz shoot at my Fusiliers a bit, and does some decent damage, about 10 because without Fortified Position and a ward they are still just 4+ save guys. The Killbow shoots Zenestra, but that was a rules mistake, she can't be targeted since she is infantry. In my turn, I choose Take the Flanks. The reason being, I am thinking that I can pretty just do it with the Ven Densts and Steam Tank. This was my first mistake: I should 100% chosen a different tactic because a lot of my units were completely out of position form this. I should have done the Attack on Two Fronts instead, I'll go into it later. Hero Phase, I do all my stuff, and it actually all goes off really well. Banish the Gravetide with the Fusil-Major. Double-pray with Zenestra and actually get the 10 prayer points for two effects (ward and bonk his wizard for d3 mortals). Cast 3d6 charge on the Cavaliers, and that goes off too. Alchemite +1 save on the Cavaliers. I don't get the Steelhelm ward, but I think that's the only thing that went wrong. Movement phase, and this one was actually super positive: Advance in Formation with only humans actually is as speedy as it looks on paper. Really fast. I ended up with in the opponent's territory with all the units that wanted it for Take the Flanks really easily. The Cavaliers get pushed up so far that they have a 3" charge into the Killaboss on Vultcha (who moved up on the left objective) and the Gutrippaz (I roll 15" on my 3d6 later, lol). Shooting phase, I get to shoot with my Fusiliers. All-Out Attack with Master of Ballistics, 11 dudes alive at this point. I shoot them into the opponent's Boltboyz (this, too, was a misplay), kill 3 models. Seems completely OK: 120 points of Fusiliers killed 110 points of Boltboyz in this exchange. Charge phase. Going kinda out of chronological order here, but my opponent counter-charges the ven Densts on the right with his Monsta Killaz. This is enough to kill Doralia which foils my battle tactic. This would not have been possible with Take their Land. Now for the big one: I get the charge with the cavaliers. They get the charge order, too, so +1 attack. The game plan is this: Slam my big block of 2+ save dudes into the enemy center line and get stuck in. At this point I am feeling pretty good. I have a command point left over for All-Out Attack, too. So I am looking at the Gutrippaz and I know they are buffed up. They have the Sludgeraker +1 damage buff and mortals on 5s. But I figure: It's my turn. I will slam in there and wipe out a good amount of them, and then just take the clap-back if I have to. I am sitting on a 2+ save, after all, and have just lined up the ideal situation for my Cavaliers: +1 attack, +1 to hit. Gutrippaz have a 5+ save, they will definitely get blown up, right? I start by making a pretty dubious decision, putting my impact hits into the Vultcha. I won't do this in the future. My opponent took 6 damage from it, but just rallied in the next round. The extra damage would have been much better used by concentrating it into my primary target. Combat phase, and now comes the big turnaround that lost me the game: Kruleboyz have their dirty tricks. One of them is to give a unit strikes last. He roll, he gets it, and now the tables have completely turned: Instead of my buffed up hammer unit getting to hit first into his main infantry block, his buffed up hammer gets to hit first into my dudes. 20 buffed up Gutrippaz do 30 mortal wounds or so on average. I get my Cavaliers completely wiped out before getting to fight at all. We do another turn after that to learn the new rules, but this was such a huge swing that it was basically impossible for me to come back. Not only did I not do any damage on my own turn, I instead lost my main hammer. But: This was 100% due to misplays on my part. I had all the tools I needed to win that engagement if I had paid better attention, I could have: Used my shooting phase to apply "strikes last" on the Gutrippaz with suppressing fire. Between the Fusiliers and Steam Tank, and maybe some other plinkers I should have gotten it on average. If I had not got the strikes last off, just redirected everything into the Vultcha (he was a less appealing target since he had that 3+, retreat for free trait). Given how close I was to the opponent, I didn't really need Twin Tailed Comet. I should have cast Cindercloud on the Gutrippaz instead to cut their damage in half. Put the impact hits into the Gutrippaz. So yeah, I got blown up by not considering my options carefully and not respecting the new edition's focus on rock-paper-scissors and activation wars. To end on a positive note: On turn 2, the big scary Gutrippa blob, Vultcha and Sludgeraker got into my Fusiliers castle. But now I actually just had all my buffs up. I counter-fired and gave the Gutrippaz strikes last. And that was basically a complete reversal of the above situation: Barely anything on my side died between the wards and everything, and he lost half of his models. If you get all your buffs, Cities is really resilient. Some take aways for me: I lost some models turn 1 before I got to act. Of course, that made me think about the Fortress City Defenders formation, being fortified and at -1 to be wounded would have made a big difference there. I am not convinced it is actually better than +3" shooting range in this edition, though. Likewise, using the Brazier would have helped heal up some of the models I lost. Endless Spells are pretty annoying. The Gravetide does pretty good damage and can move into combat without charging. That's why I even though the Brazier would have been very good for me this game, I am not sure I actually want to switch into it: Having an extra banishment from the Sacred Tome without having to give up my Alchemite cast or Zenestra prayer was valuable. Definitely stack wizards and priests this edition, don't let opponent's freely cast manifestations. Master of Ballistics: I'm going to say it's worth running. However, I was really feeling the command point squeeze this game. The new commands provide a lot of options for dynamic play. Earmarking a lot of them for All-Out Attack and All-Out Defense is actually a big opportunity cost. Fusilier Castle: The build works and does valuable stuff for you. Just don't be dumb like me and make sure they don't take damage before you have your wards up. Command Corps: Super good and really worth their points with the Marshal. 5+ ward always is good, the threat of foiling command is really good, double commands are also worth it and the group fights well enough. Marshal: I will keep bringing him, the Relic Envoy and extra control are really convenient. Wards: Even though the faction seems lousy with 5+ wards, they are not as free as they look. I think Zenestra is still worth bringing because she allows you to push foreward offensively with a 5+ ward. Steam Tank Commander: Barely did anything in my game, but was fast and got my Cavaliers into position. I think if I had used him better, he could have done work. Since I got wrecked by that strikes last ability, of course I was considering if the Cavalier-Marshal would have been better with his strikes first effect, but honestly I could have played around the strikes last thing no problem with the tools I brought. Ven Densts: They really don't do damage when they are on their own, not fighting wizards. They are very fast, though. I didn't get to shoot a wizard or even a manifestation this game, which makes me sad. I am really curious about the Hurricanum. With how valuable command points and wizards were in my game, a wizard that saves you a command point on All-Out Attack is looking pretty nice right now. I am seriously considering stacking wizards and priests and playing the Manifestation game in Collegiate Arcane Expedition. Edited July 25 by Neil Arthur Hotep 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acrozatarim Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 23 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Endless Spells are pretty annoying. The Gravetide does pretty good damage and can move into combat without charging. That's why I even though the Brazier would have been very good for me this game, I am not sure I actually want to switch into it: Having an extra banishment from the Sacred Tome without having to give up my Alchemite cast or Zenestra prayer was valuable. Definitely stack wizards and priests this edition, don't let opponent's freely cast manifestations. Just to let you know, it looks like your opponent made a couple of misplays with the Gravetide here, if I'm reading your account correctly. Their Pulled to the Grave ability has the MOVE keyword, and units cannot use a MOVE ability in the turn they are set up, so your opponent couldn't have summoned the Gravetide and used Pulled to the Grave to move. He'd have had to try a regular Charge to get into combat, at the usual 9" or more set-up range limitation. Also, the whole thing of using Pulled to the Grave to enter combat without charging is itself contentious. See, the Gravetide has the FLY keyword, and the Fly rules specifically state that the unit cannot use a Move ability to enter combat range of an enemy unit unless that ability specifically states it can. Pulled to the Grave does not allow state that it allows you to end your move in combat range, therefore the Fly rule kicks in and prevents it from doing so. This might be affected by some errata or FAQ somewhere, as I've seen people arguing about it, but the rules as written are really clear here. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 2 minutes ago, Acrozatarim said: Just to let you know, it looks like your opponent made a couple of misplays with the Gravetide here, if I'm reading your account correctly. Their Pulled to the Grave ability has the MOVE keyword, and units cannot use a MOVE ability in the turn they are set up, so your opponent couldn't have summoned the Gravetide and used Pulled to the Grave to move. He'd have had to try a regular Charge to get into combat, at the usual 9" or more set-up range limitation. Also, the whole thing of using Pulled to the Grave to enter combat without charging is itself contentious. See, the Gravetide has the FLY keyword, and the Fly rules specifically state that the unit cannot use a Move ability to enter combat range of an enemy unit unless that ability specifically states it can. Pulled to the Grave does not allow state that it allows you to end your move in combat range, therefore the Fly rule kicks in and prevents it from doing so. This might be affected by some errata or FAQ somewhere, as I've seen people arguing about it, but the rules as written are really clear here. Thanks for this info. We were discussing whether or not the Gravetide can move into combat or not while we were playing. I had not previously deeply looked into the mechanics of Endless spells, so I didn't have the answers ready. We kind of had the movement/set up rules wrong in our head: We though what prevented movement after setup was just that both abilities are CORE, but it is of course a universal rule. For the Gravetide moving into combat, that's actually a super interesting thing, though. We remembered that the restriction of not moving into combat is part of the Move core ability and that then correctly identified that the Gravetide does not use that ability, but instead Pulled to the Grave. So we already identified one unintuitive interaction here. I find it funny that there is an even deeper layer with going on with Fly that might block the movement into combat again. So yeah, FAQ that please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boar Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 5 hours ago, Acrozatarim said: Also, the whole thing of using Pulled to the Grave to enter combat without charging is itself contentious. See, the Gravetide has the FLY keyword, and the Fly rules specifically state that the unit cannot use a Move ability to enter combat range of an enemy unit unless that ability specifically states it can. Pulled to the Grave does not allow state that it allows you to end your move in combat range, therefore the Fly rule kicks in and prevents it from doing so. This might be affected by some errata or FAQ somewhere, as I've seen people arguing about it, but the rules as written are really clear here. Matt Rose while he was on site at Tacoma GT confirmed that intent is for those spells to move into combat and he said that change is in FAQ, next FAQ. So we wait for official word on it. RAW yes they cannot, but honestly if I didn't stumble upon someone arguing about it I would never notice exact FLY wording. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Boar said: Matt Rose while he was on site at Tacoma GT confirmed that intent is for those spells to move into combat and he said that change is in FAQ, next FAQ. So we wait for official word on it. RAW yes they cannot, but honestly if I didn't stumble upon someone arguing about it I would never notice exact FLY wording. I had that suspicion, because the FLY keyword restricting movement would be very surprising. Edited July 25 by Neil Arthur Hotep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 26 Author Share Posted July 26 (edited) Once again, I have been thinking about lists. I feel like I have been trying to be too cute with my recent lists, focusing too much on synergies and not enough on the basics. So I want to make sure I get the fundamentals right in my next attempt. Which, to my mind, are: Three threats Screens Power projection So, what unit pairings are threats in Cities? Here are a few that come to mind. Fusilier Castle (560 points) Marshal, Command Corps, 20 Fusiliers These guys are a defensive/supportive threat. By putting them in the middle of the board I can take shots at anyone near the center. My opponent will want to charge them, but that is a trap, too: Once they are entrenched with Fortified Position they will be very hard to shift and it is unlikely that the opponent can actually take the point they are guarding off of you efficiently. Cavalier Hammer (~600-800 points) Two heroes, 10 Cavaliers Offensive threat. By running two heroes next to 10 cavaliers they can easily be pushed up the board 16" turn 1 and will very likely get an alpha strike. If they start within 18" of the foot Marshal, the Relic Envoy can give them the charge order when they need it. A lot of heroes can potentially join the Cavalier block. I like the Alchemite for access to 3d6 charge and +1 to saves or maybe Zenestra for the ward. After that, the cheapest fast hero is the Cavalier-Marshal, but I think the any of the monster heroes, Hurricanum or even Tank Commander can reasonably be added here. Dark Elves can build something similar with Drakespawn knights, but it is harder since they don't get to move two units with Advance in Formation. Those two groups are, IMO, genuinely good. Not much need to mess with them other than adding additional support if there are points to spare. After that, I think if you are running pure humans things get a bit tricky. Doubling down on any of these groups is inefficient. Fusiliers really want Master of Ballistics (or any offensive buff), so the second block of 20 is a lot worse. Cavaliers are more doable, but you likely won't get two early charges with them since the set up is so heavy on Orders. Steelhelms, I think, cannot be made into a credible threat in any capacity currently. A human artillery company composed of two cannons and a Fusil-Major could be workable, maybe, but I think it is not a threat that contributes well in the objective game. Steam Tank groups are probably no longer a threat, sadly. For players that don't exclusively run humans, I think the following are easy go-tos: Runelord group (420 points) Runelord, 20 Hammerers Bruisers. Sit on a point, are hard to shift, hit back really well. Add 10 Irondrakes if you feel like it. Sorceress group (400 points) Sorceress, 20 Executioners Offensive threat. Huge amount of mortals on the charge. Probably needs some kind of screen, though. This unit has the upside of also opening up Dark Riders, which are great for battle tactics. Gotrek (360) He is weaker this edition, but he is still a credible offensive threat all on his own. He just needs some cheap bodies around him and he's good to go. Those are my thoughts so far. I think it's easy to get lost in the sauce with Cities by putting in units that synergize well but ultimately don't help you win the game. I'd love to hear a bit about which unit combos you guys think are good. EDIT: One more thing: It feels like some Manifestations can take the role of a threat. The Krondspine Incarnate in particular is basically just a big monster. The Battlemage can get +1 to summon it, or +2 in Collegiate Arcane Expedition. That's a 50/50 through an unbind, but seem like it could be worth doing. Edited July 26 by Neil Arthur Hotep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satyrical Sophist Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Once again, I have been thinking about lists. I feel like I have been trying to be too cute with my recent lists, focusing too much on synergies and not enough on the basics. So I want to make sure I get the fundamentals right in my next attempt. Which, to my mind, are: Three threats Screens Power projection So, what unit pairings are threats in Cities? Here are a few that come to mind. Fusilier Castle (560 points) Marshal, Command Corps, 20 Fusiliers These guys are a defensive/supportive threat. By putting them in the middle of the board I can take shots at anyone near the center. My opponent will want to charge them, but that is a trap, too: Once they are entrenched with Fortified Position they will be very hard to shift and it is unlikely that the opponent can actually take the point they are guarding off of you efficiently. Cavalier Hammer (~600-800 points) Two heroes, 10 Cavaliers Offensive threat. By running two heroes next to 10 cavaliers they can easily be pushed up the board 16" turn 1 and will very likely get an alpha strike. If they start within 18" of the foot Marshal, the Relic Envoy can give them the charge order when they need it. A lot of heroes can potentially join the Cavalier block. I like the Alchemite for access to 3d6 charge and +1 to saves or maybe Zenestra for the ward. After that, the cheapest fast hero is the Cavalier-Marshal, but I think the any of the monster heroes, Hurricanum or even Tank Commander can reasonably be added here. Dark Elves can build something similar with Drakespawn knights, but it is harder since they don't get to move two units with Advance in Formation. Those two groups are, IMO, genuinely good. Not much need to mess with them other than adding additional support if there are points to spare. After that, I think if you are running pure humans things get a bit tricky. Doubling down on any of these groups is inefficient. Fusiliers really want Master of Ballistics (or any offensive buff), so the second block of 20 is a lot worse. Cavaliers are more doable, but you likely won't get two early charges with them since the set up is so heavy on Orders. Steelhelms, I think, cannot be made into a credible threat in any capacity currently. A human artillery company composed of two cannons and a Fusil-Major could be workable, maybe, but I think it is not a threat that contributes well in the objective game. Steam Tank groups are probably no longer a threat, sadly. For players that don't exclusively run humans, I think the following are easy go-tos: Runelord group (420 points) Runelord, 20 Hammerers Bruisers. Sit on a point, are hard to shift, hit back really well. Add 10 Irondrakes if you feel like it. Sorceress group (400 points) Sorceress, 20 Executioners Offensive threat. Huge amount of mortals on the charge. Probably needs some kind of screen, though. This unit has the upside of also opening up Dark Riders, which are great for battle tactics. Gotrek (360) He is weaker this edition, but he is still a credible offensive threat all on his own. He just needs some cheap bodies around him and he's good to go. Those are my thoughts so far. I think it's easy to get lost in the sauce with Cities by putting in units that synergize well but ultimately don't help you win the game. I'd love to hear a bit about which unit combos you guys think are good. Super quick note. Only one of the units needs to be human for the double advance order. The other could be something like Drakespawn Knights. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted July 28 Share Posted July 28 A duardin thematic list that performed quite decently: Quote Dawis power (1970 points) ARMY Grand Alliance Order Cities of Sigmar Collegiate Arcane Expedition 2000 Points Limit Drops: 3 Spell Lore - Spells of the Collegiate Arcane Prayer Lore - Scriptures of Sigmar Manifestation Lore - Primal Energy Regiments General's Regiment Runelord (120) • General • Sacred Tome • Master of Ballistics Hammerers (300) • Reinforced Ironbreakers (260) • Reinforced Irondrakes (300) • Reinforced Regiment 1 Cogsmith (130) Gyrobomber (180) Gyrocopter (160) Gyrocopter (160) Regiments of Renown Gotrek Gurnisson (360) Gotrek Gurnisson Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App Exported with App Version: 1.0.1 Data Version: v128 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 28 Author Share Posted July 28 I managed to get another game in. Against Beasts of Chaos this time. I will do a full write up later, but a few quick impressions: - Fusiliers are really worth it. They got two rounds of shooting in before getting engaged im melee this time, and then they held their point for the remainder of the game against a Doombull, Ghorgon and some Bullgors. Save stacking is alive and well for them. - Steam Tanks still tank well, but their offense is as bad as the math makes it look. They do nothing in melee. I think the Commander may be justifiable, but the regular Steam Tank is really not. - I'm ready to jump on the Endless Spell train now. They really provide too much value to ignore. Doing a Collegiate list next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 29 Author Share Posted July 29 So, yesterday's game. My opponent's list: Spoiler Beasts of Chaos Hungering Warherd Beastlord (170) - 10 x Bestigors (200) - 3 x Bullgors (180) - 1 x Cygor (210) Doombull (180) - 6 x Bullgors (360) - 1 x Ghorgon (220) - 1 x Ghorgon (220) Great Bray-Shaman (120) - 10 x Ungor Raiders (90) Herdstone [Lore of the Twisted Wilds] [Primal Energy] 1950/2000pts 3 drops Generated by Listbot 4.0 I don't remember artefacts and traits. My list: Spoiler Cities of Sigmar Ironweld Guild Army Steam Tank Commander 340 [General] - 1 x Steam Tank 300 Freeguild Marshal and Relic Envoy 130 [Master of Ballistics] [Brazier of Holy Flame] - 6 x Freeguild Command Corps 190 - 20 x Freeguild Fusiliers 240 Pontifex Zenestra, Matriarch of the Great Wheel 240 - 10 x Freeguild Cavaliers 340 Alchemite Warforger 110 - 10 x Freeguild Steelhelms 100 Spells of the Collegiate Arcane Scriptures of Sigmar Primal Energy 1990/2000pts 4 drops Battle plan is Battle for the Pass Deployment: That's my Fusiliers on the home objective along with the Marshal, Command Corps and Steelhelms. The Cavaliers are on the right with Zenestra and the Alchemite on the hill. Steam Tanks in the back to zone out ambushing. My opponent has his Beastlord, Bestigors and Cygor on his home objective, and his Shaman, Ungor Raiders and 3 Bullgors on the left near the Herdstone. My opponent takes first turn. He picks Seize the Center and rushes into the middle with his Bestigors and Beastlord, with the Cygor a little bit behind. He advances the Shaman and Ungors on the left point and sets up the Bullgors run and charge to threaten my Fusiliers. He summons the Gnashing Jaws, as well. I redeploy my Steelhelms to catch the Bullgor charge. They take it and die (forgot to give them Hold the Line, if I had remembered I think 1 or 2 would have lived). I Covering Fire with the Fusiliers, but since they are not in fortified position, they fail to kill a Bullgor. Fusiliers and some other units catch a few stray points of damage from abilities. The Fusiliers heal them back almost straight away from the Brazier of Holy Flame. On my turn, I set up the alpha strike with the Cavaliers, and again they easily get the charge into the Bestigors in the center. They get a bunch of buffs and are super threatening: Strike them Down, +1 to saves, All-Out Attack, 3d6 charge. They put the Beastlord on 1 health with impact hits. Since killing it is my battle tactic, I decide to put attacks from all available Cavaliers in to it, which is half of them, which does the rest. The remainder attacks into the Bestigors, which hurts them but does not wipe them out. I shoot the three Bullgors with both Steam Tanks. Even though they both have Power to the Guns and +1 to hit, they fail to wipe them. To put that into perspective, that is 640 points worth of units failing to do something like 10 to 12 wounds to a 5+ save. I think they did around 8. The Fusiliers split their attacks between the last remaining Bullgor and... I want to say the Cygor? Maybe the Gnashing Jaws? I get the double turn and end up removing the Cygor and Jaws through a combination of unbinding and shooting in the following turn, so I don't 100% remember. This is the state at of the board at the end of my second turn. I moved the Steam Tanks up because I thought that having 640 points sitting in the back just zoning out the ambush would make me lose the game, since that way I would not be doing battle tactics or capturing enough. I think holding the Tank Commander back would have probably been a better play, though. I think tat the time I was thinking of using him to take the objective near the Herdstone. After that, my opponent gets his turn and ambushes in his dudes. I want to really praise the Fusiliers here. They are really great as an objective holding unit, and they held my point for something like three more turns. They look like they would not be able to take a punch, but they are super resilient. I had them fortified for -1 rend, with the Alchemite save buff and All-Out Defense, which put them at a 3+ save, 5++ ward ignoring rend 2. They held up the Bullgors, Doombull and Ghorgon, and since the Marshal gave them +3 to capture they never lost the point before they were wiped. If you think about the Fusiliers not just as ranged damage dealers, but also as an anvil unit, they become really attractive for their 120 points. The Steam Tanks, on the other hand... They both got caught in combat, and they also managed to live for a while. But they just did not contribute anything in terms of offense. My Fusiliers were frequently tankier than the Tanks, as well, since save-stacking more than one unit is pretty difficult. All the Steam Tanks did was sit on their points, and they did manage to hold them, but in the end they did not manage to kill anything. Not even a Bullgor (since they could not overcome the Warherd healing). A few other things happen. Gnashing Jaws are summoned once more (off-turn), but end up not doing much since my Command Corps charges the top point and kills the Ungors and Shaman before they can become a problem. My Cavaliers finally grind out the Bestigors, but it is too late. Looking back, I should have piled them in around the Bestigors over a few turns and then retreated on my opponent's home objective. Having them fight in the middle didn't provide value, but I underestimated how long it would take to kill those Bestigors. We end up calling it after my opponent gets the double turn from the above position, which would get him enough of a point lead that I would probably not be able to catch up in my last turn. So, another loss this time, but it was fairly close and the game felt very interesting. Again, I think I definitely had a chance at winning if I played better. I don't think I was beat during list building. Takeaways for me: Brazier is fun, but it kinda just helped me recover chip damage this turn. For it to have real value, you would have to make sure that you can actually win melee engagements, lol. Ironweld Guild had some value this game. It definitely helped my Steam Tanks get a few shots in, but I think the Fusiliers did not make use of it. I am planning to keep the Fusilier block for the future, but I don't see my self bringing a lot of other shooting right now, so I think I will switch away from it in the future. Alpha strikes have been a threat in the two games I played, so for general purposes Fortress City Defenders is looking pretty attractive. It would also give the Fusiliers their better shooting profile for covering fire right from the start. But really, I am taking a look at Collegiate Arcane Expedition next, since I have a problem with threats and board presence right now and I think that Manifestations would help a lot with that. I am a little unhappy with Master of Ballistics. You really feel the drain on your command points when you are running it. There are some options to get around it, of course. You could try the Unfaltering Aim prayer. Or you could try to run a Fusil-Major. Sadly, from the math it seems like the difference between +1 to hit only and +1 to hit and wound is pretty substantial, and I think not running the trait will frequently mean not finishing off a unit you are shooting completely, instead leaving it at 1-2 health. I will have to experiment with it a bit to see how it feels in practice. I kind of want to give Grizzled Veteran a try. Command Corps and Freeguild Marshall: Both are really good and felt valuable all the time. I denied an important command with the OPG ability from the Corps at one point, I used them to screen constantly, they took a point and killed a bunch of stuff late game etc. They are just really solid. The Marshal is also super nice, his +3 control score helped me hold my point and his orders through the Envoy made positioning a lot easier. I had him with Duelling Pistols, which I will change to the Warhammer in the future. The reason being that even with +3" range he barely got to shoot and when he did, it didn't do any damage. I'd rather have the swingy profile with a chance at 3 points of rend 2 damage so that engaging him in melee is not completely free. Alchemite: Still very good. Some people seem to have convinced themselves that giving out +1 to saves and a cast/unbind/banishment are not worth a drop, but those people are wrong. Unless you are really pushing for low drops, he's great. Zenestra: Sadly still super good. I'd love to play without the 240 point tax, but a 5+ ward aura is just too good to ignore. Hold the Line really is not a replacement for it. Tanks: The normal tank is bad. Barely does anything for its 300 points. The Tank Commander is better, since he can take artefacts and traits and give orders. But he is hard to list build with and, honestly, still really hard to justify over any of the big monster heroes. For the future, I really want to start running the Battlemage on Hurricanum again. It does a few things I think I value: +1 to hit in melee for the Cavaliers, saving on command points. Adds a cast/unbind/banish. Has a mortal wound shooting attack that is not a shooting attack and can thus shoot in combat and target Guarded Heroes. So my next list will have no Tanks and instead stack wizards and priests. Let's see how that goes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thugmullet Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 16 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Zenestra: Sadly still super good. I'd love to play without the 240 point tax, but a 5+ ward aura is just too good to ignore. Hold the Line really is not a replacement for it. I'm off for a game today. Played as Sylvaneth first game AOS4.. So my first COS game today. Going in with this. COS Ironweld (2000 points) ARMY Grand Alliance Order Cities of Sigmar Ironweld Guild Army 2000 Points Limit Drops: 5 Spell Lore - Spells of the Collegiate Arcane Prayer Lore - Scriptures of Sigmar Manifestation Lore - Morbid Conjuration Regiments General's Regiment Freeguild Marshal on Griffon (280) • General Freeguild Fusiliers (240) • Reinforced Regiment 1 Pontifex Zenestra, Matriarch of the Great Wheel (240) Regiment 2 Battlemage (110) • Master of Ballistics Freeguild Steelhelms (100) Freeguild Steelhelms (100) Regiment 3 Runelord (120) Hammerers (300) • Reinforced Regiment 4 Freeguild Cavalier-Marshal (170) • Sacred Tome Freeguild Cavaliers (340) • Reinforced I'm running Zanestra for the first time to try her out. I'm think the Hurricanium will replace her next depending on how she goes. Her +5 ward doesn't work on the duardin so not sure of her value here. I want to have her for her prayer. Really after the +2 move and the board wide damage against wizards. Well see how she goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 30 Author Share Posted July 30 (edited) 4 hours ago, Thugmullet said: I'm off for a game today. Played as Sylvaneth first game AOS4.. So my first COS game today. Going in with this. COS Ironweld (2000 points) ARMY Grand Alliance Order Cities of Sigmar Ironweld Guild Army 2000 Points Limit Drops: 5 Spell Lore - Spells of the Collegiate Arcane Prayer Lore - Scriptures of Sigmar Manifestation Lore - Morbid Conjuration Regiments General's Regiment Freeguild Marshal on Griffon (280) • General Freeguild Fusiliers (240) • Reinforced Regiment 1 Pontifex Zenestra, Matriarch of the Great Wheel (240) Regiment 2 Battlemage (110) • Master of Ballistics Freeguild Steelhelms (100) Freeguild Steelhelms (100) Regiment 3 Runelord (120) Hammerers (300) • Reinforced Regiment 4 Freeguild Cavalier-Marshal (170) • Sacred Tome Freeguild Cavaliers (340) • Reinforced I'm running Zanestra for the first time to try her out. I'm think the Hurricanium will replace her next depending on how she goes. Her +5 ward doesn't work on the duardin so not sure of her value here. I want to have her for her prayer. Really after the +2 move and the board wide damage against wizards. Well see how she goes. Good luck! Would love to hear how that goes. Zenestra has a few good things about her. As I said before, Hold the Line is good, but it is far from being a 5+ ward all the time. The chance of having the ward on your Cavaliers when they charge in or on your other troops during the hero, shooting, and charge phases is super valuable. Zenestra alway provides good value for me. Her unbind is great to have in the current Manifestation meta. She does not die easily either, 9 wound and a 4+ ward make her more durable than she looks. My general approach with her has been to pray a throwaway prayer with her first attempt, save the points, and spend them on her warscroll prayer with her second attempt. Praying off-turn for an effect or just to build ritual points has been good, too. IMO, her ward bubble is why you take her. Her movement boost is no longer board wide, so watch out for that, but it is great when you want to steal an objective with her or do a battle tactic late game (she can easily move 12"+ with a run). And bonking every wizard on the board is always a good tool to have in your pocket. I am also looking at the Hurricanum for my next list. I am trying to set up a game with it some time soon. Edited July 30 by Neil Arthur Hotep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morathi is my Goddess Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 I think if the Hurricanums + to hit affected mounts it would be a consideration for my lists. As it is now I'll always prefer to use all out attack which does affect mounts, which means Hurricanums (hero and non hero) utility falls away too much for its points cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted July 30 Author Share Posted July 30 5 minutes ago, Morathi is my Goddess said: I think if the Hurricanums + to hit affected mounts it would be a consideration for my lists. As it is now I'll always prefer to use all out attack which does affect mounts, which means Hurricanums (hero and non hero) utility falls away too much for its points cost. It is worth it for me because I am only looking to buff Cavaliers with it, and for 10 cavaliers not buffing the mount attacks only misses out on 2 points of no-rend damage. The Storm of Shemtek alone is likely to make up for that very quickly, and I really value saving command points for all the mobility related stuff you can do now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morathi is my Goddess Posted July 30 Share Posted July 30 Yeah that make sense, I really wanted to pair it with a couple of griffons until I realised Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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