[The Rumour Thread]

13 hours ago, Chaos Shepard said:

Well kind of regardless of how the campaign ends, its still nice to see a significant event take place that doesn't directly have anything to do with Stormcast or the forces of Order. On top of that whens the last time you saw Chaos as the defender instead of the invader. 

When the ironjaws took their allpoint. Such narratives exist. 

[The Rumour Thread]

10 minutes ago, calcysimon said:

Pliz be a miniature 🤩

This piece of art is awesome. Who knows there might be more models.

[The Rumour Thread]

17 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

I was thinking about this but yeah  

Man, I would be excited to see a giant faction. The sculpts on the gargants are great! I wonder what the designers can do if they go wild? 

[Male and female representation in GW models]

Just now, JPjr said:

and that's totally fine, you don't owe anyone anything or have to think or feel in a certain way. whatever got/gets you into the game and works for you then great.

just as I can imagine it must be ****** enraging for some people who feel like they're excluded in some way because of their race, gender, sexuality or whatever I can equally imagine it must be ****** to be expected to follow some party line, everyone's life experiences are different and we should respect that.

but on a macro rather micro level we see again and again and again that representation matters, it brings joy, it can make people feel welcome in spaces that up till now they might not have.

being able to give my niece a comic featuring someone that looks like her (Ms Marvel) makes her feel more confident to explore that world.

getting my wife to pay any attention to AoS was made a hell of a lot easier when the core book had a female stormcast on it, when she sees videos with people like Becca Scott on and when she can collect models that she might see herself in (which actually happens to be DoK).

I mean sure but seeing as after 40 years they haven't managed one I wouldn't get too worried about that.

but also on a general level why not? (not having a 100% range of that type but just them existing)

trying to think what it was but I'm pretty sure I read a story this week in the latest Inferno anthology that featured a black Aelf, it wasn't a big deal just a mention, so I need to check it, but why shouldn't there be races within races.

and again on a selfish POV I'd love to see an incredible army based on something like the Songhai Empire or the Japanese Shogunate but I'd want to see them done  properly and with respect. 

the problem is, as we've seen, no matter how well done or how minimal it is for some people it will always be 'OMG SJWs FORCING THIS DOWN MY THROAT'

Well that's their opinion, it's not an outlandish one to have when movies and IP's have been destroyed because it.

I don't entirely agree with them but i've seen it happen. They are worried about the slippery slope. I'm not going to get too bent out of shape about it until GW starts going that route.

[Male and female representation in GW models]

3 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I know you are using it as an farcical example, but ogre kingdoms do/did have something of a mongolian aesthetic going on...

Yeah but they aren't painted like them. Ok let me change it, if they were all black and that was the canon from now on that wouldn't bother you? It would bother me.

Edit:Luckly GW aren't like that since they said they want to avoid doing stuff like that.

[Male and female representation in GW models]

4 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

Those first 2 paragraphs contradict eachother. First you say you dont care what colour the models skin is, second you say if GW make dwarves any colour other than white you would be annoyed? Hmm.

Why is it that dwarves all have to be white to you? You can argue either that they're so similar to humans that they should also have various skin colours, or you could say that because they're not human that they shouldn't have to stick to human skin tones at all.

It's amazing to see how much it means to some people when they see themselves represented in media. The only thing that feels forced to me is the people who are so resistant to the idea of whiteness being decentralised in their favourite piece of media. White isn't the default.

No doesnt, let me be more clear I don't want them changing factions or warping their lore to fit a damn quota. What if they changed all of your ogres into asians and say no other type exist thats what I mean.

So far I think GW are handling reprensation in a good way so far. Representation wasn't what got me into warhammer.

[Male and female representation in GW models]

As a black guy the last thing on my mind when I started was whether the the models were painted white, black, yellow etc.

If one day GW makes all dwarfs yellow, brown etc all it will do ia annoy the hell out of me. Hell the females in my store play nurgle, beastmen and seraphon. 

You can have representatuon where it fits organically but to force it will just aggravate me.

[Male and female representation in GW models]

4 minutes ago, flemingmma said:

mould out the breast plate but not into boob plate, boob plate compromises the function, similarly to muscle plate.

 

Woah, what are you thinking? Sigmar loves his chisled abs, pecks and boob plate on his armour, its part of the stormcasts charm.

Also there is already racism in the setting via the reclaimed, those tribes or groups of people who survived chaos are looked down upon by those from ayzr. 

[Male and female representation in GW models]

6 minutes ago, JPjr said:

I mean chaos is, if you want to really get into it, an interesting case.

let's say that racism, sexism, bigotry of all kinds is as horrifically prevalent as it is in our world, actually no because we all love that Warhammer is super grim dark and grown up it's actually much much much worse.

who is more likely to turn to chaos?

the guy who the world revolves around or...

the woman who lives with an abusive husband and after years of violence at the hands of a big strong man, opens herself up to the rage that's built up for years and bashes his skull in with a hot iron. I'm sure Khorne would welcome that and throw her a few boons so she can go toe to toe with other men?

the black guy who has to work twice as hard to get just half the respect that his peers do and so turns to Slaanesh?

the poor person, living hand to mouth on the street, desperate for hope and change and turns to Tzeentch to further their goals?

the disabled person who lives with pain and frustration every day and finally seeks salvation and respite in Papa N's arms?

 

Chaos is much more interesting a concept when it isn't twiddling its moustache and flexing its big beefy muscles.

I agree with you here we are missing that aspect of chaos in our stories. While Sigmar is the opposite, he picks people who don't give into their dark impulses and fights for their fellow man.

I would give you a like but I ran out.

[Male and female representation in GW models]

1 minute ago, HorticulusTGA said:

This is a very well said and reasonable point, thank you. 

Yes. And to think those kind of discussions didn't existed a few years ago (thank you Disney and Marvel).

I find it tedious, and a source of animosity in between us of the community, like how @Kirjava13 jumped at @HollowHills throat with ad hominem.

It has nothing to do with the Hobby. Mods should act now. 

Honestly I think this is one of the first times I have seen on a forum where people are largely being adults in this discussion actually. Made me actually quite happy to be fair and brightened my day. 

[Male and female representation in GW models]

1 minute ago, HollowHills said:

Pretty sure about 60% of people don't care, 10 to 20% really want GW to actively pursue diversity and 10 to 20% don't like it. 

Here is what sums up the issue to me. 

Until 2017 there were no female stormcast. In 2018 suddenly 1 in 3 are female. There was no explanation for this. It just happened.

Secondly, Warhammer previously had a fairly dark fantasy vibe. Archaon for instance was born as a result of a chaos warrior raping a nord woman. Other than elves in WHFB armies were male dominated, which particularly made sense due to the fact men are biological stronger and tougher than women when it comes to warfare. This reflected and mirrored real world history to an extent. 

Now you have brutal chaos hordes who we are meant to think are completely barbaric and depraved, except they would never do anything bad to women, be racist or sexist. In fact they are completely happy with a woman in charge. It doesn't even come up as an issue. 

To me there hasn't been any real explanation as to how we got to this point. It just appeared overnight. This makes it look like its a marketing decision to be more diverse, rather than a natural part of the setting. 

I also have personal beliefs about the hobby as being a traditional male space for guys to bond, much like a rugby or football team. But that has been mentioned before so I won't raise it again. 

 

See here's the thing, I don't entirely agree but I understand your point. I don't think people should of jumped you for it either. Honestly I think this topic was rather helpful in clearing the air than clogging the rumour thread, but I suspect the mods are going to lock this up. 

[Male and female representation in GW models]

Just now, dekay said:

Alright, I'll bite. I'm one of those people who think that when Primaris showed up, it was a moment where female space marines could've been safely added without violating prior role. They're a product of extreme technoheresy anyway, They're meant to remove some problems with creation of the originals and 'emperor has forbidden it' doesn't seems to be a thing that Cawl was particularily concerned about - he creates new things without proper procedures and not only doesn't hide it, he slaps his name on every single design he puts into production. One paragraph about him wanting to broaden the recruitment base and figuring out how to make geneseed work with female organism would, for me, solve the matter. The whole biology side of geneseed and astartes creation process makes zero sense scientifically anyway, so it wouldn't be in any way worse than it is now.

However, if one day GW just randomly decided to add women to SM sprues and start telling us they've always been there, including inserting them to novels happening in earlier time periods to justify that claim, yeah. That would be deeply unsatisfying sense wise.  I'd get used to it some time later, though, as I did to all the new vehicles and equipment that GW have 'always been using' that was added in my memory ; ). Because the concept of female SM is ok with me and would, again, give me more parts for future conversions.

Luckily, AoS has no such problem - setting is still extremely malleable and basically all lore requires a lot of fleshing out.

See I think female stormcast are fine, male Space Marines are ingrained in the setting. Don't get me wrong I like representation, Iove my female and Male Magus in my GSC. I'm just a jaded individual, I've seen time and time again companies showing that they don't actually care about representation at all. It's why I now mainly shrug at it. 

[Male and female representation in GW models]

18 minutes ago, dekay said:

Sense is relative. With things like fishpeople on giant sharks flying above dry land and magically resurrected superhumans in huge gold plate and such, bar for 'sense' is remarkably low in AoS, especially if we understand it as 'historical accrucacy', the favourite term of people liking to claim that women were invented in XX century.

Army of half naked warior priestesses with knives makes sense in AoS, but I can't see them fare particularily well on medieval battlefield. Especially without magic. Because through magic, all the craziness is possible, and as long as authors put some effort into explaining how it works, everything can make sense. Even flying sharks.

But putting those things aside - anyone who has ever tried to kitbash multiple women will confirm - we need more female models. Because right now, despite GW getting way better in this departament in recent years, the choice is terrible. Choice for *human* women is even worse and like 90% of it comes from warcry, that came out just a few months back. I'd like more diversity, and I mean it in 'diversity in availible plastic parts' way before anyone's hurt feelings descend upon me for using a forbidden word.

Elves are mostly set for now and I don't expect future aelf armies to be different. Also, let daugfhters of khaine serve as an example - if they managed to squeeze men into the faction that's remarkably sexist in lore, there should be no problem with finding the place for women in the others.

Stormcast are getting there, and if they contine in the same direction, problem will solve itself. Cool.

Duardin are lacking. The novels clearly mention female Kharadron fighters and, really, the only thing there's different about them is that their heavy pressurised suits covering the entire body have beardless masks. Because there would be no way to tell otherwise. So, just put some masks with female faces on them in future boxes and we're cool (more or less how it was done with Tau in 40k. most of their infantry wears armour and helmets anyway, but some of the helmetless heads are female. Which you'll know only if you have some knowlege in Tau gender characteristics :D)

Fyreslayers - I honestly don't know enough about their fluff to know if they currently admit women in their ranks or not, but if they hypotethically would - less beard, even more crazy hair, design wise it's not a problem, It could probably be squeezed as some optional parts into a unit box. Different face, different torso front, rest equally axe-y and bodybuild-y. Doable. And, honestly, fun and original, we don't see many dwarf berserker women around.

Order Humans - we're at legacy models only now, so no wonder the situation is dire. If new models ver come, there better be women in there.  Both as characters and among the regular units. There's no reason for them not to.  Does that make sense, historical accuracy wise? There's an answer to that question, and it's 'who the hell cares?' They're fighting demons who want to replace your skin with concept of trauma, every single human in history would fare equally bad against it. But these humans are supported by equipment made from magical materials, magic, and faith that actually works wonders. They'll manage, despite being frail m'lady females and not strong manly men. Of course, those female models could've been grizzled veterans and exceptional fighters as well, and if they were I'd take some oy in reading all those hurt comments from people for whom some sisters of battle being old was a personal attack ; )

So, that was order.

Death... honestly, death is dong great recently. Nighthaunt have some of the best designed women in the game imo. Who would claim that Lady Olynder or the Briar Queen look bad. Plus, we even got a female ghoul, who looks creepy enough and I wouldn't mind more of those if basic ghoul resculpt ever comes. Hunger doesn't discriminate by gender.

Destruction: Troggoth Hag mentioned here is a great example of how this can be done right. It would be cool to see more of those female mosnter archetypes show up in game. All the Baba Yaga's, Grendel's Mothers and such. So much potential here. Some Ogre women wouldn't hurt as well, by the way.

Chaos: Warcry has done some great service to them in that departament. So did Godsworn Hunt. I wouldn't mind seeing warrior women similar to Jagathra in future marauder resculp. Same with Kairic Acolytes - woman from Eyes of the Nine is a great example of how it could be done. Some female demons of gods other than Slaanesh would be nice to see - Valkia was a great concept, I'm curious what they could do with, say, an old nurgle'y witch. Also, it would be cool, if new Warriors and Knights come in multipart eventually, to have some helmetless heads female. Like a dark mirror of Stormcast.

 

In general, I see progress and I'm happy GW is ignoring all the reeeee'ing caused by it and continues in its set direction. And thanks to that, some of us get extra fun with reading how making fanatical-chainsaw-repentants less sexy, and giving their leader wrinkles is the end of western civilisation. ; )

EDIT:

Also, what @JPjr said. 

 

When I'm talking about sense, I mean the levels female Space Marines. My whole outlook is that companies don't give a flying monkies about representation, that's my stance and why I don't really care. Blizzard the company that cares so much about it seems to be okay with removing the witch doctor for China and banning a guy for campaigning for basic human rights. Wizard of coast are okay with changing a character's sexual orientation to appease china. To get money. 

Hence why I see it largely as a farce. 

[Male and female representation in GW models]

5 minutes ago, Still-young said:

None of that means representation and diversity aren’t good things though. Just it hasn’t been done well in those cases. 

I agree with you completely. But most companies aren't doing it because they are altruistic, if they don't think it will earn them more money they will drop it in a heartbeat. That's already been made clear enough as it is. As I said I'm extremely jaded. 

Edit:As I said GW are one of the better companies handling it, I just think some people are kinda scared that GW will fly off the handle. I personally don't think they will. 

[Male and female representation in GW models]

7 minutes ago, Still-young said:

So, I’m left handed. That’s about the only thing about me that makes me any kind of ‘minority’ whatsoever. Whenever I see a left handed model, it makes me strangely happy. 

I can only imagine how good it must be for actual minority and marginalised groups to see themselves represented in places where they haven’t been before. That’s how I personally understand the importance of representation, and it’s such a small thing in my case. It’s hard to see why representation is important I think when you are of the group that is consistently represented, but it is important. 

Thing is most corporations are using it to fill a quota and will remove it for the sake of more money. Aka wizard coast, a female had interest in both sexes, that was quickly changed in a novel to appease China she now only likes big muscled men. A novel that was also available in the west now people are in an uproar over twitter. They even remove black characters or altar them for their Chinese game client aka blizzard Diablo 3 and even star wars when it comes to finn. Now GW aren't like that(thankfully), but most are. Hence why I'm cynical whenever I see it.

It's why whenever I see companies pushing that angle hard I just roll my eyes. I mean you heard of the China Blizzard situation right? That's basic human rights. I'm just really jaded, don't let me pull down your excitement, I just don't trust corporations in general. 

[The Rumour Thread]

1 minute ago, Kaleb Daark said:

So, back on track, I think the big spiky teaser is a end of a club for a bongrinder sized  AoS imperial knight gargant who has now made his peace with the fleeing peasant and is carrying him on his shoulder like master blaster from Mad Max Thunderdome.

Yup, can't wait! The hammer obviously belongs to a gargant. 

[The Rumour Thread]

2 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

Polite notice guys and gals - before the mods weigh in, just remember you're here to have fun and at the end of the day it's just pushing plastic toys around a table.

 

Yeah, anyway there is a separate topic for this. 

[The Rumour Thread]

2 minutes ago, JPjr said:

out of interest what is it about the male faces GW sculpts that you find so sexy?

To be fair most of them are sculpted to be chiseled, good looking muscle men. I mean we know GW can do it, I think the female Magus for GSC is pretty good sculpt, better than some of the sister faces actually. 

Ironically in my store the females literally have no interest in the supposed female armies, they are doing nurgle, beastmen, tyranids and bonereapers. But, you know that's anecdotal, everyone is different. Read an interesting story on reddit where a father bought his little girl to a GW store and she picked out custodes. 

[Male and female representation in GW models]

My opinion is I don't really care as long as it makes sense. 

[The Rumour Thread]

3 hours ago, Still-young said:

It’s been handled about as naturally as it can be. Where female versions of something are possible and appropriate (Stormcast, nothing has ever said otherwise and there’s no reason why women can’t be made into Stormcast), some of the models they release for them have been women. That’s all. There’s no ‘quota’, and I really don’t know how they would do it so that you didn’t see it as there being one. It’s not even the majority are female, as pointed out. 
 

As for the ‘boys and their toys’ rubbish, it’s a anyone who enjoys the hobby and their toys space. As it should be. 

I think the is issue hollow has is that many entertainment mediums, from movies, to shows etc take it too far alienating their customers. Leading them to bombing or destroying their ips or fandoms. But I recall GW makes the express point they don't want to do that. As I black person, I feel many companies these days are just using my skin colour to fill a quota. Just my opinion. Now GW aren't doing this, I feel they are doing this an organic way in my opinion. When I try to point this out, people say I'm not black, I'm a racist white boomer behind a keyboard, many people who do call me this are actually white themselves lol. 

To me his post feels like his fear talking, I can also see 123lac's point. I'm excited for sisters, but this made me roll eyes back into my head, going to use the top right head instead or even the bottom one. Talked with my mates in my GW store and they all agree wondering what the hell is this? The black's sister nose is freaking huge! It's clear what GW are shooting for, but they missed the mark in opinion. 

 

Now everyone is jumping on him, I don't even entirely agree with him, but I do understand what he is trying to say. In my eyes that's his fear talking.

[The Rumour Thread]

3 minutes ago, Chikout said:

I just did a quick count. If you include the exclusive minis, there are now 26 male characters and 6 female characters in the range. If you just count exclusive models it's 4 male, 3 female. If you start when gw first introduced female Stormcast it is 10 male and 6 female. That doesn't feel like too many in a fantasy setting. 

As for good writing of female Stormcast in AOS,   I would  recommend Hammerhal by Josh Reynolds or Blacktalon by Andy Clark.

Regarding the gargants, it makes a lot of sense to do a destruction battletome. That would bring them up to par with death and it would be cool for gw to shine the spotlight on a race that's never been the centre of attention before.

Issue is why are most of the characters hammers of sigmar? That's my beef really. I honestly think GW is one of the better companies handling this IMO. Just want to say that. 

[The Rumour Thread]

1 minute ago, FFJump said:

In this thread a few pages back. He said consider a complete revamp of the Aleguzzler Gargants as a faction similar to Imperial Knights. Then when the rumor pic of the hammer looking thing came out, someone said a Chaos Gargant and he said not necessarily Chaos. Then finally in response to this:
 

He posted this:

 

I think it's going to be interesting to have a Gargant faction, those who like painting big models are most likely going to have a blast with it. 

[The Rumour Thread]

29 minutes ago, MitGas said:

AoS's background has a long, long way to go before its realms will feel like a truly good setting IMO, but hopefully it'll get there - right now we can only judge it by standards of similar or related settings and in there an overabundance of females would feel "off". Anyways, totally agreed about the female quota - a female character is cool if done right; e.g. Ripley or Sarah Connor (funny how old examples from the 80s are so much superior to the new brand of "super-OP-mega-female chars). If not, it feels tacky and the creators will whine about sexist man-pigs not being open enough to give them a chance. Which is simply an excuse.

It's really simple: all they need to do is make/write them good. The Avengers scene with all females was cringe-worthy. That Bat-Woman thing from the show was pathetic ("suit's gonna be perfect when it fits a woman!"), Ripley was awesome, despite some cheesy stuff and lines ("get away from her, you b...!" "mommy!"). All that's needed are a few things: good characters, a plausible explanation and not a single guy (except for idiots) would ever dream of complaining about a female figure in a work of fiction or otherwise. In the case of Stormcast Eternals it's kinda unusual to see many women, as "realistically" (based on humanity's history, even if that doesn't really apply in fantasy), not many females would become legendary warriors that get reborn as SCEs but whatever. I feel the female characters work much better in more rag-tag units like barbarians or an all-female force but it doesn't bother me yet in Warhammer. Could be done more organically but it's kinda difficult here as well to be fair. Either way, long story short: get good writers and lots of things will work that might feel tacky otherwise. Especially when I look at Hollywood that advise is much-needed: so few movies nowadays have decent scripts, feels like a lost art.

I disagree on stormcasts, Sigmar doesn't really pick them based on how strong they are but more on their character and inner spirit than anything else. Hell Gardus was a simple hospice priest who tried to fight off chaos with candlesticks and endured Nurgle messing with his patients. The whole reforging process makes the strength issue moot point.

The opposite is for chaos, the gods like you more depending on how strong you are and how far you are willing to go to give them more souls, that's when they will empower you. 

I can say a lot on this subject, but I think the topic will veer off if this discussion is pursued. 

[The Rumour Thread]

2 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

They're... Stormcast. They're all "badass". 

Is there something you want to say about how you feel about women...? This comes up a lot, dude.

I can understand his point, as a black guy I am going to point out the new sister of battle canoness, her nose is freaking huge. I can see what GW is aiming for, but they kinda missed the mark in my opinion. Got plenty of female black friends and their noses aren't like that. All I can do is raise my eyebrow. To me that model just seems like a quota just like Hollow said. 

I mean hell, we still don't have a Gardus model for the hallowed knights considering how popular he is. Why do they all need to be hammers of sigmar? 

[Warhammer - The Old World]

25 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

You're really going to deride WHFB for this when AoS was made to sell Fantasy Space Marines?

I would actually agree with him WHFB is a pretty generic and static setting in my opinion. Stormcast actually have far more layers character wise than Space Marines, it's a failing of 40k that they are focused on so much and more than half of the armies in the setting wear some form of power armour. 

If the lore is so terrible why are the books selling more than WHFB? How come soul wars the new edition book reached horus heresy in terms of sales. (According to Josh Reynolds.)